The Therapy Alchemist
Change is not just about the science and research. Mental health isn't just what we characterize as a disorder or not. It's also about the mystical ways in which we change and grow. Science can't study everything about our inner spirit/soul.
On this podcast, a Licensed Professional Counselor in Colorado dives into the spaces that science cannot go. Discussing what ACTUAL growth and change look like. Filling in the gaps that the pop-psychology world misses, completely ignores, or sometimes shames. Plus some tips and tricks along the way to help you achieve your own personal legend.
The Therapy Alchemist
#16 Pride Month: From Bullying to Healing with Sam Haid LPC
In this Pride Month special episode of The Therapy Alchemist, I talk with my friend and licensed professional counselor, Sam Haid, about his experiences growing up as a queer man and how it has influenced his work as a therapist. Sam, who is also a registered art therapist, discusses the unique challenges he faced, the concept of decolonizing therapy, and the importance of visibility and community in the LGBTQ+ world. We also explore the enriching role of art therapy and how creativity is inherent in the queer community. Tune in for an enlightening conversation that dives deep into the magical process of transformation and belonging.
00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction
01:21 Sam's Personal Journey and Pride Month
02:41 Experiences of Bullying and Resilience
07:22 Therapeutic Approach and LGBTQ+ Influence
09:07 Decolonizing Therapy and Systemic Challenges
16:19 Challenges as a Queer Therapist
27:05 The Myth of Progress and Personal Safety
28:02 Feeling Safer in Progressive Areas
31:03 Belonging vs. Fitting In
32:23 Introduction to Art Therapy
33:53 The Therapeutic Power of Art
36:02 Art Therapy Techniques and Client Insights
43:02 Art Therapy and the Queer Community
44:55 Advice for Allies and Community Engagement
46:36 Conclusion and Contact Information
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*This is not a substitute for therapy nor is it therapeutic advice. If you would like to find a therapist in your area check out psychologytoday.com, goodtherapy.org, or therapyden.com
Happy pride month, everyone. Welcome back to another episode on the therapy Alchemist today, I talk with my friend and licensed therapist is Sam hade. Sam is a licensed professional counselor in Colorado and New Mexico, and he is also a registered art therapist all over the country. Sam is a part of the LGBTQ plus community. So today what I did is I brought Sam in and I asked him questions about what it was like to grow up as a queer man. And how did that integrate into his life as a therapist? How does he approach therapy? Has it altered the way that he has been as a therapist? I'm really looking forward to you guys, listening to this episode. Don't forget to hit that subscribe button. I have some really cool interviews coming up. The next episode I'm going to do is with Dr. Craig peacock. He is a podcast host from the back, from the best podcast. And we talk about how psychedelics help our mental health. You guys are not gonna want to miss that one. So definitely hit that subscribe button.
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:Hi Sam. Welcome to my podcast. I'm so glad that you reached out to me and that you are going to be on here today to talk about Pride Month and what it's like for you as a gay therapist in the mental health world. and to get your take on a lot of different things such as like art therapy, the, LGBTQ plus community, what kind of ways that we can advocate in that area, all sorts of stuff. so to get started, I wanted to ask to talk about like Pride Month and like what that means for you personally. And then that will help us to slide into some other things.
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me, Katrina. you're wonderful. You're lovely. Thanks for having me on. I'm really grateful. I think on a personal level, my gosh, I mean, that's a loaded question, right? So June is definitely my favorite which is pride month. And it's not just because of pride month, but it's the kickoff to summer. I think for me, some buzzwords that are coming to mind radical inclusion, community, resistance, visibility. Collectivism, intersectionality. these are some hot words that are coming to me as I'm thinking about what it means to me. I grew up in Atlanta, Georgia in the nineties and early two thousands in the city of Atlanta. So there was a lot of of queer folk around. things were really different back then. I was bullied quite a bit, and I was a pretty effeminate, creative kid that definitely stook, stood amongst many of my peers, and so, I think for me, pride is, Taking up space and, being visible and being accountable and aware to engaging with community and being accountable and aware to the privileges that I have, as a white gay man, a cis white gay man. when the history of Pride was also rooted in trans people, black trans people, really uprising in particular. Right? So, being cognizant of that as well.
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:I love that. I don't love the part about you being bullied though, and I imagine that it's got to be really hard, to be different, right? I feel like as society here in America, it's very much like you need to be like us to belong, you know, you need to fit in. so what was that like for you, if you don't mind going into that, just like the bullying side of things and what has been your experiences?
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:It was really rough. And I think, in the scale of severity with bullying, I think what I experienced from what I understand was pretty moderate. And it was still really bad. I had adults as well as kids making comments, making slights, feeling excluded. I was bullied online extensively. my name, if you would Google my name, there were videos of kids making fun of me and that was on the internet for a decade, literally
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:Oh my god. Wow.
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:it was very, very rough. And I, I guess I identify as cis, and for those who don't know, cisgender means, that you were on the side that you were assigned with birth. So when you're born, you're assigned either male or female based upon your genitals. I identify as a man, but I also am very queer and I felt very caught in between these worlds of girlhood and boyhood. Yeah. And, that was a very distinctive feeling for me. the pink and blue world, different music, stuff like that. so it was pretty intense. And, I think it definitely, you know, I think there's some of the strengths to it, is I developed, for better and for worse, a strong sense of self awareness. of how I take up space, of how I'm being perceived, a hyper vigilance, for better and for worse, of am I okay in this space, am I safe in this space, are people looking at me? Because growing up, I would just be existing, and apparently, attention was drawn to me. you know, I think I've made a lot of peace with it, it's all good, and I think the best part is I was privileged enough to have resources, to go to therapy. and I didn't go to therapy just because I was being bullied. There was a lot of additional stuff that was playing a factor in my life, but, I was able to receive support where it was obtainable. and I think that really supported me and being able to, to move through, a lot of this stuff.
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:Yeah, it sounds very traumatizing.
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:It was, but you know, I think, I think I'm better for it to be honest. Like I think I, I think being, growing up queer, growing up gay has made me a more empathetic person. It's made me care more about other people. I don't know where I would be located if I. We're more on the mainstream realm. I, I really think that I became a therapist. There's a strong thread of me becoming a therapist because of my upbringing and of being bullied and stuff. So I think it, it's all, it's all there.
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:Hm. Which makes perfect sense. I feel like, I don't know. I feel like whenever we worked at the last place that we worked, there was a time, I don't remember if you were there, but we talked about as a group, how therapists pretty much become therapists because we were those people who needed help. And so we go into this world with that, cause we have that, like that special side where we can understand people differently. So it sounds like this has been like a catch 22 where it's like, It's half good and half not good at all your experiences?
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:Yeah. totally. I think I'm not unique, right. In my identities as a queer person, isn't unique to, what supports people feeling disenfranchised or hurt or traumatized through life that leads them to being in a, in a field of service. but it makes me think of the archetype, the wounded healer. and I think that's what many of us in a field of service, whether it's social worker therapy or nonprofit work, anything like that, many of us carry that identity.
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:Absolutely. Do you think that being a member of the lgbtq plus community has influenced how you approach therapy and like what modalities you use?
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:I would say so. I'm a registered art therapist. I went to school, and. A small little school in Santa Fe, New Mexico, where I studied for my LPC licensure, as well as for, being a nationally registered art therapist. I think creativity, right? Expression. these are inherent. values in the queer community. so I think, and growing up, I was just a very expressive kid. And so I think bringing in art therapy, bringing in creative expression, a variety of different expressive arts is, is also really inherent in my identity as a gay person, as a queer person. And then I'm like really engaging and undergoing. Looking into what it means to be a decolonial therapist. So looking at the ways in which, and listen, like I'm a, I, you know, Western psychology is wonderful. It's great. And there are some, there are some shortfalls in my opinion. And, and so being someone that wants to be as, trauma informed, as accountable to my own privileges, and, Aware to different struggles or identities that I'm not experiencing directly means that I need to really look into a decolonial approach. So looking at different ways in which we pathologize the person rather than the system. stuff like that. So I don't know if that answers your question, but those are kind of some of the
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:Yeah. can you explain to people, what you mean by that? the decolonization of therapy?
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:Yeah. So from my understanding, and I'm also very much learning this at the same time, it's, it's complicated because I think accessibility comes into play as well. So I am a therapist that is taking insurance. my reasoning for doing that isn't because I like to work with insurance. It's because I want to support, accessibility. And this isn't to say that people that don't take insurance that are private pay are wrong. It's just a different value system and a different way of showing up, right? So, disclosure there. But, and so with that, Because I'm providing accessibility, that also means I have to provide a diagnosis and I have to work within this Western framework of overpathologizing, which is one of the major problems in our Western medical system. And I have to put a, you know, a diagnosis of depression or anxiety or PTSD on a person who is experiencing perhaps chronic trauma from, and validation or from racial trauma or, patriarchy. Or misogyny, or PTSD from, a collective system that supports the objectification of a, of a woman's body. and I'm externally processing I guess as I speak about this, but I think for me, looking at a digital colonial lens is how can I, of course, how can I play the system to make. therapy accessible for those while being very cognizant and aware of the wisdom that exists outside of Western psychology, indigenous practices, collectivistic practices, not looking at the hyper individualism of the, the person, knowing that, Our body is very important in the healing process. I'm studying a lot of somatic therapy right now as well. And so, you know, breaking out of the CBT model and really tapping into more of, what's the felt sense of my body and how can I honor that and develop a stronger intuition with that and trust with that and know that That is just as valuable as what my mind is also telling me, right?
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:Wow. I love that you're going into so many different aspects of humanity, you're not staying in a box and it sounds like you never have been, you know what I mean? And, and it is kind of interesting though, that you say that, you are working with insurance and what popped into my head when you were saying that was like, there is nothing in the DSM 5 where you could just like bill the comp, bill insurance on, well, the patriarchy fucked me up. You know what
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:There's a Z code. for that either, so.
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:Uh, so yeah,
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:Um,
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:be, you know what I mean? Because like, it's like, yeah, like you said, it is pathologizing just being a human and having like a normal human reaction to an abnormal situation. And it is difficult in this industry, especially through insurance because of how they function. and Do you, and this is kind of off topic, but I'm just kind of curious, but do you tell your clients and talk to your clients about what diagnoses you give them and expand on that for them? Or is that something that's just kind of like, eh, we'll just send it to insurance.
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:So far, I think it just depends. I think, the standard ethical question of is it, is it important for the client? how severe is the diagnosis? how informed do they care to be in that process? and if I can also explain to them, this is how the system works so that we can make sure that you're able to receive services if they're interested in that. Absolutely. I share that with them. but. I think it's kind of, I think it's kind of fluid. It's not a one size fits all. but I can't think of a client where I haven't, like I've said, I'm not going to tell them this diagnosis,
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:Sure. Yeah. Cause it's not top secret, but I just didn't know if if you helped to break that down for them. But I'm guessing. It sounds like during your sessions that you are helping them to figure out, like, where their stuff is coming from, which I feel like in the LGBTQ plus community, I would imagine, I mean, you tell me if I'm wrong, but that that's a huge part of, understanding yourself, like, how much of this is, you know, me being broken, me, something being wrong with me, I'm crazy, I'm whatever, I don't fit in, you know what I mean, and realizing, There are so many factors that contribute to why you're feeling the way that you feel. And so I love that, that somebody who is in the queer community is a therapist. Because it's hard to not to, you know, for me as like a cis straight woman, like I am I don't get it, and I can try, I can try to understand it, but it's not the same. And I think that, you're able to, to help people in a way that's just so relatable, because you, you really get it.
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:thank you. I think in some ways I do. Right. And I think what I'm thinking of as I'm hearing you say that is this is, this is why visibility is so important. This is why visibility is a, is a hot word for me when it comes to pride month is. When you talk about, a client who maybe is questioning their gender or identity or anything like that. or they grow up thinking that they are. Something's wrong with them. There's a lack of visibility. There's a lack of opportunity for them to see themselves in the culture. and this extends just beyond queerness. It's also in white supremacy, and that's deep in colonialism, of course. And Yes. And, I'm not a BIPOC person. I'm not Black, I'm not Indigenous, I'm not a person of color. for the most part, I guess I identify as cis. And yes, I get it, and there are plenty of lived experiences that I don't have. Again, one of the values that I love about Pride is when it's at its best, it's really bringing people together and honoring the different intersections of our varying and being accountable to, to those. You know what I mean?
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:Yeah. And it's so cool. Cause then you get to know people who are different,
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:Mm hmm.
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:there is some, there's comfort in being with people who are similar, I love hanging out with other therapists, cause we all have the same language when we talk to each other and whatever, and we just kind of get it, you know, but at the same time, when you meet somebody who's like a construction worker, right. And I'm just using this as like, my example, but you know, I think it's the same is true with like our different races and our different identities and all of that stuff. Like you get to learn so much more when you meet other people. And, yeah, I think that's, what's beautiful about pride month too is, there's a reason why there's so many colors, Is to like, Make it so, or at least, I don't know if this is the real reason, but it's how I guess I kind of interpret it, is like, there are so many different beautiful ways of being a human, and let's just combine it all together in one month and just really celebrate it. And, yeah, I love that, social media, I think, has been helpful in probably making people feel more included in things, and getting more access to care, even when they can't specifically, access it. if they can't afford it or whatever. I know that there's, a lot of therapists online who are posting content and stuff, It is good though. I mean, I love that that's out there. I did want to ask, too, what are some of the challenges that you've faced? Because I know having the office next to you for a while, I knew that there were some challenges that you face as a gay therapist and, actually I should specify, do you identify as a gay therapist or do you identify as like a queer therapist?
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:I think, I appreciate you asking. I typically say like I'm a queer gay man. gay therapist, queer therapist.
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:Okay.
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:You know, either or. It's all good. Thanks for asking.
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:Yeah. Of course. so yeah. What are some of the challenges that you have faced?
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:I mean we were in northern Colorado, I think a couple of, I'm thinking of, one person in particular, a parent who, and it was pretty direct, and I think, there's been instances, I'm gathering my thoughts here, there's been instances where something has happened, and I think many of us have shared stories of this, whether we're women, queer, whether we're black, and we experience something from someone, and we're like, did, was that because of this? you know, did they pull away? Did they not want to continue? Did they say this thing? Did they not say this thing because of their perceptions of who I am, and so there were copious amounts of that in therapy, whether that was with couples I was working with or parents, or teens, the kids were always great. but I think, I can think of some parents who would ask me kind of randomly out of the blue to not talk about, like, one parent once was like, I'm worried that you're going to talk to your kid, talk to my child about homosexuality. And I said, and that was their words, homosexuality. And I said, and I was like, huh? I was like, well, why? Why would you think I would do that? and their kid was a teen and, and I think this, this parent was quite uncomfortable and a bit nervous about having this conversation, but there was clearly a concern there and, I don't know, but I remember just kind of affirming, like, I'm not going to talk about this stuff unless your kid brings it up. If your kid wants to bring it up and they're a teenager. I'll entertain the conversation, but, you know, it's not, that's not my role, right? And so I think, There was probably just a lack of exposure, with people, and encountering me and making assumptions based upon a lack of exposure, right? Which I think, I mean, that's the name of the game with all of us as people where we, we form biases based upon Ideas or assumptions or stereotypes with not enough exposure.
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:hmm. How did that feel, though? Because I feel, as you're saying that, I would be so offended.
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:You expect it. I mean, I, I think in Northern Colorado, and one of the reasons why I moved down to Denver was I just needed to be around a more diverse group of people and people that are just, used to being around, just a wider variety of different types of people. No, no shade to Northern Colorado. It's just what I did. I wouldn't say I was offended. I think it was more funny. I think, because I know it has nothing to do with me. And I know where my values lie as a therapist, and I know where my ethical, values lie. Why would I bring up sexuality with a, with a teenager if they're not wanting, if they don't bring it up, you know? It's irrelevant. It's not important to them. So, let alone mine. or their, their perceptions of what my sexuality is. I don't go, toting around that I'm a gay therapist or a queer therapist. I did have a small pride flag in my office and that's for visibility. And that's because when I would have queer or, questioning or trans clients come in, they would see that and go, okay, cool. this is an affirming space, this person understands, they're safe, so maybe that's why, assumptions were made, you know what I mean?
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:hmm. Absolutely. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. it seems like you've built up a good, um, self, what's the word? I don't want to say self esteem, but I think there's a better term for it, but you are very sure about you. I think that's something that I really love about you, is that you are just who you are. And it, I mean, because I imagine if you were a teenager and that same situation would have happened, it would have been a different story. You know what I mean? because it sounds like you've encountered this so much that you just had to have this Teflon skin to be like, I understand it's not about me as a person. It's the me, Sam. this is about a wider problem that's happening where people are just not able to see outside and they're fearful of things that they don't understand, you know? And that, that's a hard space to be in. did you, or a hard space to get to, I guess I should say. Did you go through like an, an anger phase or anything that, cause, and the only reason I say this is because when I deconverted from Christianity growing up in the Bible Belt, I don't know what it's like to come out as a gay person at all, but telling my family and my friends that I was an atheist was like the worst thing you could do. and so it felt similar to how, you know, the LGBTQ plus community has described it. and so I know for me, I went through a really pissed off phase. And so I just wonder if there was some anger, I guess what was the process of you like really owning all of who you are and the whole coming out.
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:Yeah, that's super interesting. I would love to hear more about what that was like for you, because I bet it was, like, a wild ride, full of misunderstandings and assumptions and oof, and it's existential, you know, religion, spirituality. So I think that's really interesting. anger, yes, a hundred percent. And I would still say that is something that I'm very much actively working on, engaging on
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:Sure.
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:deep, deep anger in my early twenties. And I'm 30 now. when I was living in Chicago in undergrad, And, deep anger, and realizing everything that I was. That I had experienced and, yes. And so, and it still exists in me, that anger and I have to honor it. And I ultimately know, this is where decolonialism comes back into play for me. When I. This is how I at least am making sense of it in my personal life. And when I show up as a therapist, I put this stuff aside because I have a role to play and I'm here to be attentive and loving and supportive and, accountable to my client, right? But in my personal life, when I have engaged and when I find myself engaging in a I like a rhetoric of, um, straight people suck, um, I hate them, they're idiots, they're de lulu, they're overpopulating, like, all of this, like, um, ego based stuff, I am colluding With a Western colonial, um, hierarchy. Um, because ultimately, it's like I'm swimming in it. I'm swimming in, I'm engaging in the exact same way of us versus them system thinking, that, I created all of the misogyny, the patriarchy, the white supremacy, colonialism, anyway. So I know that ultimately, my role is, you know, I gotta honor that part of me, and that's the kid that's injured or the teen, you know.
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:hmm.
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:But if I want to be engaging and healing myself and really living the values that I I want to, I need to let it go, and I need to remember that, we're all accountable, myself included, you know, I'm a white person, I'm a man, and so for me to push off my own identities or the way that I collude with systems by pointing to other people is very much part of the problem as well. so it's a, it's like, I need to check myself in that way, because it's ultimately not actually, it's not a part of the way that I want the world to be.
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:it takes a lot of humility for you to recognize that. And I think, I think it's, it's hard to do because we want to go to the opposite extreme. something I've noticed about human beings is if we are on one end of the pendulum, we will swing all the way to the other side and go to the opposite extreme, which is where you went of fuck all of these straight people. This is awful. You guys suck. And then finding your way back to that like center ground of okay, persons are good. People. May suck sometimes, but like the person on an individual basis is usually Good for the most part, I'm like recognizing like wait Am I perpetuating that same problem that got me kicked out in the first place? You know because if everybody was queer then it would be the straight people, you know And it's like the same problem would persist. So I never thought about it being Like a colonialized thing until you just said that and I'm like, oh my god Yes. That makes so much
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:hyper individualism, the, like, tribalism, the, it's, it runs deep. Right? And like, people suck as a collective, yes, a lot of the time, but does that, is that the case just because of the systems? Are the systems just really, are they not supportive of people caring about one another? I don't think so. Not to the, not, not of what humanity is capable of, you know?
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:Mm hmm. Yeah. And things are changing and shifting and anytime that that happens, it, it stirs up the dust and it makes people unsettled. But I think, and I don't know what your experience is with this, but I feel like I am seeing a lot more inclusion on the straight side of things where like more people, that I know who are straight or like cisgendered and whatever, are are being more flexible in this area. people that I didn't think would be flexible are starting to bend more. And I really love seeing that, because That's something that I will argue with, family and friends who may be, like, stuck in old ways of thinking, but I don't know if you've experienced that, shifting as well or if that, if it still feels like it's the same discrimination.
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:I think we've made incredible strides in 20 years. I look at these younger generations and I'm like, Oh. My. God. and, I'm so happy. because it was really hard growing up. And, I also stand on the shoulders of The generation that dealt with the HIV epidemic who were, you know, like things have, things are progressively getting better and there's a myth of progress because we can go back, as we are, certainly seeing a lot of anti trans legislation happening across the country. the country right now, we can go back. So the myth of progress, we need to remember that it's not a guarantee. but I agree with you. I think, things have been getting so much better it's good. It's wonderful. It makes me feel hopeful. I think safety is like a thing that I have developed, that hyper vigilance. Right. And I think, many of us, Women, people of color, queer people, gender nonconforming people, whatever it might be, however we grow up, we, you know, our nervous system might develop to a point of where we're hyper vigilant to our perceived sense of safety. Whether it's true or not, I would say that. And I definitely feel safer than when I was a kid. I think that is due to me having my own autonomy and agency. I'm not dependent upon anyone as I was as a kid, right?
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:hmm.
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:The world in America at least, or the places that I am lucky enough to live in are, have been blue states and are relatively progressive for America. And all of that, I noticeably felt safer when I moved down to Denver from, from Fort Collins, from Northern Colorado. And, I felt less visible in a way that made me feel unsafe. and that feels really, really good.
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:hmm.
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:and again, no diss to Northern Colorado. It just is what it is.
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:And for those who don't know, Northern Colorado is, like, very, um, I would like to call it, like, country. It's, like, a bunch of white people,
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:very purple.
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:Yes.
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:purple, um, which is fine, you know, I, duality, I believe wholeheartedly in that. We don't, I don't need anyone, everyone to think the same thing, but, yes, it is a lot of farmland and it's really close to Wyoming and,
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:And I imagine that, it would feel like you are sticking out like a sore thumb in, in a, in a culture that you don't fit in, do you feel like it's, like it's easier? Do you, well, hold on. Let me think of how to phrase this. Do you that you're gay in Denver. And this sounds really weird. And the reason I ask it is because when I when I'm here in Colorado, I don't ever think about the fact that I don't believe in God. But when I go back to Oklahoma, it's on my mind all the time. It is so confronting because it's always like, well, God bless. And you know, it's all in God's plan. And I'm just like walking down the street. And so, um, You know, but when I live, when I live in a place where it's like more people are similar to me, then I just like, I'm like, oh, that's not even that big of a deal. But it was a big deal when I lived in a location where I, I stuck out. So I didn't know if you, if you feel similar to that at all.
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:Yeah. No, that's such a funny question, the way that you worded it, but it makes so much sense. And, um, uh, yes. Well, I don't know if I ever, I don't know. Do I forget? Probably. It's not all of my identity, right? In the same way that you not believing in goddesses. You're not walking around like, Atheist! Um, but, I definitely, I noticed that, Northern Colorado was the place of all the places that I have lived since Atlanta. I've lived in Chicago, I've lived in New Mexico and, now Colorado where I felt the most aware of my sexuality in a way that made me feel visible and uncomfortable and a bit unsafe. So I would say being back down in Denver where there's just a lot more diversity and a lot more people on the gender spectrum that are visible and, just more vibrant. array of walks of life, I feel like just a part of the stream in it, if that makes sense, more than kind of like this, like rock in the stream, which is how it felt like this, like this, I don't know, this wedge or something when I was in Northern Colorado. and it's not this black and white either, but yes, I definitely, It takes up less space than I think in my mind
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:Good. I love that. Yeah. I love that you feel like you belong more.
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:Yes. Oh my gosh. Belonging.
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:Belonging. I know because I think about Brene Brown and like her research on fitting in versus belonging. And for those of you who don't know Brene Brown, she's amazing. All therapists worship her. It's a weird thing. but the difference between fitting in and belonging is just that fitting in is like, I have to be like you in order for you to want me around. And belonging is I, you demand of me that I be myself. So, we all crave belonging, but we often find ourselves caught and fitting in, you know, which I imagine is how you've felt in several different spaces,
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:Absolutely. Yeah. No, I love that you bring that in and then tying it back to pride month. whatever your identities are, that's what pride month is at its best really about. It's about, being in a community and, Being visible for all of our diversities, and then being celebrated, and not tolerated, but really celebrated and,
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:hmm.
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:of great value because it makes the whole so much more rich and strong.
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:I love the word celebrated. I think that's, that should be a word that's included with belonging.
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:Mm. Mm hmm.
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:one in the same, I think, because it is different, like you said, like tolerated versus celebrated. And I love that. I love that for everyone, for you guys. so I know you wanted to talk a little bit about art therapy, so we can maybe shift gears if you're cool with that, because a lot of people don't know about art therapy. and it is so cool. And I have loved, whenever I got to go to your office, I only kind of played around in the sandbox, but still that was really revealing to me in between sessions where I'm like, oh my God, I didn't realize I felt this way. But I love like the diversity of how to approach therapeutic techniques, and things like that. so can you tell people a little bit about like how art therapy works?
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:absolutely. Yeah, so art therapy is an evidence based, meta verbal process, so beyond language. in the same way that going to regular therapy with someone, you're using the language of whatever language you're using, art and expression is very much also another language. And I think the sky's the limit with art therapy and expression. I find that when I try to describe it so far, it's still, I feel like I don't, like, harness it. but it's a way to express and explore different ideas, events. Feelings, felt senses that are going on in our lives currently, in the past, it helps us process and integrate difficult emotions, trauma. It helps us communicate where words are limiting. it helps, children, people who are nonverbal, people who struggle with words, people who are learning a new language to express something that. might be too challenging to do with words. and then what I always say is, what does it mean for you to create something that now exists outside of yourself? It is this thing that is now representative. When you use your words, there's, it's ephemeral. It comes in and out, and it's so valuable. But then what happens when you expand on those words, or you allow the image to, speak for itself. And now you have this relationship with this thing that you created, that exists outside of you, that's looking back at you, or that you can share with someone else. And it's not always about the product, the final thing, it's often very much about the process. So people, Teenagers and up typically will be like, well, I'm not an artist. I'm not good. I can't do this. I can't do that And we were programmed often by our art school teachers to feel shameful art school elementary school middle school high school art teachers To think that if we can't render or draw something perfectly, then, then we're not artists. Right? Um, but, we all are. We all have the capacity for expression. and it doesn't always need to be visual. We can move our bodies. We can create poetry. we can collect materials outside in the world and create something from that. Create sculptures, patterns, et cetera. and so then with the art, we can transform it. What happens when we create an image of something that's really challenging? that. is really representative and it heightens our experience to a new level. What do we want to do with this image? Do we want to share it with someone else? Do we want to fold it up and put it in a container that we created? Do we want to burn it? Do we want to bury it? do we want to cut it out and turn it into a collage? Do we want to create a 3d sculpture of this that we, made? And so it's incredible. It's, it's magic. And. When people are willing to explore and play, and get out of their minds, so much can happen. It can be really potent.
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:Mm-Hmm.
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:I hope that was a good descriptive. I still feel like I'm not able to harness it, but
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:No, I think you are. I think I understand it really well. how do you feel that that has helped you understand your clients better? Or has it helped you understand them better?
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:Oh, man. I mean, there's so much here. I think what I'm what I'm initially thinking of. So 1, you know, we have a client who is very anxious or has a lot of perfectionism or hyper fixates or has a lot of intrusive thoughts where they overthink a lot. That might really be represented in the way that they engage with art, right? They might want to choose materials that are very, resistive. colored pencil pencil. They're not going to go to the paints, right? They're not going to go to the watercolors. Less control. Right? and so that is also that helps you understand. Where is my client located with just taking risks? trying new things, being visible. so you can learn a lot by the materials that they choose. You can learn a lot about how much they allow for mistakes. and then something else I'm thinking of as I spoke upon, there's, there's something called the expressive therapies continuum. It's a really strong framework that is often utilized by expressive therapists. So you have kinesthetic and sensory aspects, pounding, mirroring. these are considered like kind of basic, like toddler level, ways of engaging, right? And that's not to say that only toddlers are supposed to do that. Because what happens when a grown adult starts to allow themselves to smear or to pound, right? They're using their body in a way that maybe they don't normally allow themselves to do. And that can be really cathartic or provide information. and then up at the top we have the more cognitive and emotive aspects. And this is a framework that also lets therapists know, art therapists, expressive therapists, based upon their presenting concerns, what would be a medium that would maybe be potentially activating in a way that's harmful to the client, So survivors of sexual assault or molestation, we have to be really cognizant of materials like glue, clay These things can be really sticky. They can get stuck on our hands. It can be really activating. Clients who You know, can get a lot, can get very anxious, whether we want to challenge them or not. Are we going to use a more fluid or resistive material? And then how do they respond? how do they seek help or assistance when they're creating? how engaged are they in the process versus the final product?
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:so it gives you guidance more on the stuff that they wouldn't verbalize to you because they may not even know that about themselves, right? Like when they're picking colored pencils, they're just picking colored pencils. But for you, you can see like, okay, wait, I'm watching how this person is interacting in this small confined setting. And that may be how they're interacting with the outside world.
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:That's definitely a way to go, right? And I think there's a, there's a misinformation that art therapists will look at an image and be like, I, you drew red, which means that you're angry. And that's just not the case. Red has so many different indications and symbols within it. So I think it's information, right? I could look at a client who's selecting colored pencils, and I can take note of it, but I'm not going to make an assumption of of why that's the case. But I am thinking of a. and a young adult that I was working with and, they're presenting concerns already. I've just been pretty perfectionistic and, and the way that this person chose to engage in the materials, it was really funny. It was like, and so I said to them, this is really indicative of like, where you're located with the fear of making mistakes or taking risks. and I can say that to them and they're like, yeah, you're so right. And so it's like, well, what does it look like for you to shake it up a little bit? And take a risk and do something different.
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:Yeah, and I feel like I love that you said that and clarified that to you that you can't make a bunch of assumptions about people because Something that I found in therapy is although we get really good at reading people, we still don't actually know. and it sparks conversation though, whenever I dabbled a little bit in art therapy, I, you know, thankfully was around a couple of art therapists like yourself and, and like Tamra And so I kind of knew a little bit, don't make assumptions about the color red, cause that's probably what I would have done. And, but it brings in, the, like verbal side of things where you can say, okay, tell me about this. What happened here when you were doing this? Describe this for me. And, I remember in particular, I had one client who the whole page was just colors, like just straight up and down colors fading into different colors. And it was a timeline for that client. And it was so cool to, cause I never would have guessed it. You would have showed that to me. I would have had no clue what they meant, but they walked me through the timeline And, it, there's something about incorporating, like the visual with the auditory and the somatic or kinesthetic or however, all the different senses that we have, like where I, you can understand clients on such a deep level. Cause you're like, wow, I didn't, I didn't know you were hurting that bad. Like the language you were using said you're, you're sad, but I didn't really realize until you showed me how deep it goes. I think that art therapy can help fill in the gaps where language is missing, because I often find that English lacks a lot of, a lot of language. I we only have one word for love, yet we use it for everything. When, other languages will use multiple words for love. Romantic love is different than how you love your dog, than how you love your plant. You know, like it's, but we just use the one word, I encourage people who are listening to, maybe talk with your therapist about venturing out into something new, or even just doing it on your own. Cause I mean, there's just things that you can learn. And it isn't about perfection. It's about what you said, the process, it's like, how did it feel to do it? And what comes up for you and what gets triggered for you and
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. To, to listeners. if you're curious. Start a visual journal. If you journal, cool, what on the other side of the page or even before you start to write words, draw a circle and then allow yourself without needing to like, what is it gonna look like? Just allow the patterns and the, the textures and the pressure just to come out. And then from that you have this reflective process. What are the words that you want to write down? I promise you, you will Learn something new. I promise you, there will be insight. you just gotta be, you gotta be receptive to it.
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:and brave. Because I think
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:my gosh, yeah.
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:it feels weird as an adult to, venture into the creative world. If that is part of your shadow, and when I say shadow, I mean the part of you that you were taught along the way that you're not supposed to be. And so there's like a discomfort in that of like, Oh my gosh, I'm going to look weird. Or even if you're alone, we still have that, like, what do they call it? the imaginary audience, I think it's what it's called where you just imagine that people are watching you and no one is. but it does take a lot of bravery to do that and to, to try new things. how would you incorporate this? Because we mentioned before we started recording, like how for you, there's a lot of connection, I guess, between like, the queer community and art therapy and the creativeness, what are your thoughts on that?
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:Yeah, I think, creative expression, is something that is inherent historically in the queer community in America, right? Whether it was through drag and performance or community art engagement. The massive AIDS quilt, that happened during the AIDS epidemic in Washington, D. C. there's so much there. And so I think a lot of the heart of art therapy comes through community engagement. art therapy exists in hospitals, private practice, community health agencies. but also out on the streets. art therapy is just inherent to it. some of the ways, I'm going to a, in a couple weeks, a, like a pride, Art street vendor, vending thing in, in River North district of, Denver. And I'm going to be tabling with some people and I'm thinking of some of the ways that I can facilitate some art engagement from people that are walking by. So I'm going to, and it's really for everyone. It's for the community because that's also very much what Pride is for. It's, it's for the queers, but it's also for those that support and are allying or who have loved ones that, That are a part of this community, right? or just value, the gifts that queer people bring. And I'm thinking about what are some ways that I can engage in the community as people are just walking by? What are some, you know, putting one thing up on a piece of paper or, with a prompt for reflection or creating, everyone adding a little bit of a line or something to create something much larger. And then we have this thing that we all did together. and that facilitates belonging.
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:I love that so much. Oh my gosh, that's such a beautiful idea.
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:Hmm. I
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:Cool. So as we're nearing the end of this, is there any advice that you would give to people who are not part of the queer community? how they could help be allies and help to be more inclusive? any tips?
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:Oh my gosh. I don't know. I mean, I'm just one person. Right. But I think allyship for any, any group of people, right. Whether it's allyship for women, allyship for BIPOC individuals and indigenous people, queer people, it's, it's a practice. We never arrive. Yeah. I believe that we never arrive at allyship. I don't think we're just a capital A ally. we have to continue to practice it. And I think, signing up to go and, and volunteer at, a pride event. Or donating, if you don't have the time, donating some money. Or, going to a drag show. And making sure that you bring your money and giving the girls, your tips. and I would also say, pride month is it's so rooted also in black, brown, and indigenous bodies. And so if it's not necessarily directly related to pride, I very much argue going out and just in volunteering for the community, I think is, is inherently valuable, of course, as well. I think, specific nonprofits that could be important nonprofits that support. the, black trans women are disproportionately killed and murdered, in this country. And so seeking out, agencies and non profits that directly support these populations also is, essential, I think. That's a great place to start.
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:Awesome. so last thing, can you tell people, cause I know you just started your private practice. So if people want to get ahold of you, where can they find you? what's your website? How do you want them to contact you? And I know you're licensed here in Colorado and New Mexico, right? So you can see clients in both places. So how can they get ahold of you?
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:Yeah, so my website is, my practice is called Infinite Wheel. like infinite to infinity. and then wheel, like W H E E L. The wheel of a car. infinite wheel. com. my Instagram is infinite wheel, I believe, or it might be infinite wheel underscore underscore.
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:That's okay. It'll be linked below so
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:Wonderful.
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:find it that way.
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:Yeah. Yeah. You can find me there.
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:Yeah. Okay. Awesome. Well, congratulations on starting your private practice and um, thank you. for coming in and
squadcaster-5097_1_05-31-2024_130833:Thanks so much for having me on Katrina.
katrina_2_05-31-2024_130833:yeah, it's been wonderful.
Alright, thank you guys for joining today. And as a reminder, Sam and I are therapists, but we are not your therapist. Therefore, this is not a substitute for therapeutic advice. If you would like to find a therapist in your area, you can check out the links below. If you'd like to get in contact with Sam. I also have put his links to his website and to his Instagram below. Also, don't forget to hit that subscribe button because the next episode that I do is one that you're definitely not going to want to miss. We're going to be talking about psychedelics. So looking forward to it, I'll see you guys then.
