The Therapy Alchemist
Change is not just about the science and research. Mental health isn't just what we characterize as a disorder or not. It's also about the mystical ways in which we change and grow. Science can't study everything about our inner spirit/soul.
On this podcast, a Licensed Professional Counselor in Colorado dives into the spaces that science cannot go. Discussing what ACTUAL growth and change look like. Filling in the gaps that the pop-psychology world misses, completely ignores, or sometimes shames. Plus some tips and tricks along the way to help you achieve your own personal legend.
The Therapy Alchemist
#8: The Art of Navigating Love & Relationships with Seth Spurgeon, LPC
Just in time for Valentine's Day, I talk with licensed couples therapist Seth Spurgeon. With a decade of experience in the mental health field, Seth shares his unique approach to couples therapy, emphasizing perspective, empathy and the importance of personal ownership in relationships. From exploring the influence of communication patterns and childhood experiences to the impact of having kids, Seth brings a refreshing and down-to-earth perspective on managing relationship dynamics. Get ready to dive deep as we demystify mental health, relationships, and the 'hard work' that goes into maintaining a deep, connected partnership.
Check out Seth here.
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*This is not a substitute for therapy nor is it therapeutic advice. If you would like to find a therapist in your area check out psychologytoday.com, goodtherapy.org, or therapyden.com
Welcome to the Therapy Alchemist podcast. I'm your host, Katrina Austin, a therapist in Colorado. I'm here to talk not only about the science behind mental health, but the magical process of transformation.
Seth:so tired of hearing people ask me for tools. You don't need tools, you need perspective. First then then you get tools
HyperX QuadCast S-4:on today's episode, I interview my friend and licensed therapist, Seth Spurgeon. He has around 10 years experience in the mental health field. And just in time for Valentine's day. Seth and I discussed how he approaches couples therapy and how he guides couples to finding that deep connection they've been craving. His unique approach to communication and reframing your relationship is something you are not going to want to miss. So be sure to send this to your sweetie as well. All right. Let's begin.
Seth:one of the things that I encounter a lot in my private practice and working with couples and individuals is they usually come in with saying something like, we are having communication issues. This is where we need to work on it. And a lot of times, a lot of people are saying like, he doesn't understand me, she's not getting what I'm saying, all of this stuff. So I'm kind of curious
Katrina:Seth, what do you think causes miscommunication?
Seth:miscommunication is a part of The the screwed up coupled dynamics the maladaptive patterns that bring people into treatment But, the, I think most people go to communication because that's kind of a colloquial thing that people are just like, it's communication, it's communication. And most people who haven't done the kind of therapeutic work to really develop a, like a nourishing connection, a nourishing relationship, kind of just sweep everything under communication. And, and for me, it's about, Like, coaching them to understand that it's not communication. That communication is often a part of it, but usually the stuff, the shit that brings people in, is way deeper than that. So, I don't, I guess. I don't spend much time on communication initially, um, because that's a topical, surface level thing, and that doesn't get anything done.
Katrina:Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree. So what is it, how do you help couples get to that thing that's underneath the surface
Seth:With painstaking effort and god like patience, Um, I don't know. So, so, EFT, right, Emotionally Focused Therapy, not that I'm a, I'm a big theory person. But the idea of, of fostering empathy and, and, and balancing that against the other thing that I do very early on is I frame personal ownership. As like an essential part of the couple process, right? So I give people, I give people usually two guidelines in the very first, uh, conversation we have. I talk about, um, I talk about if it's important to my partner, it's important to me to frame taking ownership of engaging with your partner in the things, no matter how simple or ridiculous they might seem like we are going to take ownership of that. And then I, I, my other guideline is I can't control my partner's reaction. I can only control my own. Which is to say, when we are engaging in the shitty communication pattern that we have, even if my partner does something fucked up, I am going to be the one to hold myself accountable to try and break the pattern. Right? Shout out Jake Wilson, who I stole that shit from.
Katrina:Love it. Yeah. That's amazing. And it's gotta be really difficult though for couples coming in because I think what I find is people who are coming to therapy, at least one of the people in the couple, are actively trying to learn how to fight healthier. And so How do you respond to them? If there's somebody who's maybe more like mental health, knowledgeable and they're like, well, but I've already done all of this stuff. And like, but he needs to, she needs to do this.
Seth:That's a good question. Um, I kind of try and normalize it, right? I think in a lot of those circumstances, um, the person that is maybe ahead, Their job is to be patient and try and be understanding which is really hard, right? Especially if you've been in a bad marriage a bad relationship for years and years and years And then you have some schmuck with a beard say like, okay Just be a little bit more patient because now we're gonna now they're gonna do what you've been asking them to Right, but I think I think if you can develop buy into that And, and the person that needs to do the work to catch up to learn the better habits Is like acting in good faith and they're really willing to do that There's a way to coach people in celebrating the small victories Which helps the person that's been waiting forever to like see the movement finally And also helps the person who needs to catch up to like, I don't know get some validation about the work that they're putting in
Katrina:how do you navigate validating one person without invalidating the other?
Seth:I named that life is hard and relationships are harder. I, I try and early on call out fights where there's or, or disagreements where, where people are both a little bit right, you know, um, where it's a matter of perspective or, or, um, well, perspective is the best word for it, I guess. You know where where i've never had a i've never had a couple come in and remember a fight the same way Right. I have to be like Listen, I wasn't there. I don't know who's right to some degree I don't care because it sounds like both of you were having an independent experience and from your Perspective based on your experience based on your hardwiring. It had this impact Right. And again, that's a way I think to leverage in some empathy between people to frame early on that like it's not necessarily about right or wrong with, I guess, some extreme examples like a monogamous couple that is going through a fair recovery or something like that. Right. Adultery is a deal breaker or addiction can be a deal breaker. But when it's when it's day to day communication or connection within the flow of life, right. You know, there's going to be, there's going to be times where there's not necessarily a right or a wrong and, and our ability to empathize with our partner's perspective. And, and hear where they're coming from is, is part of how we cultivate understanding and, and the understanding creates a more, you know, a better connection. don't actually know any of this. I just do, I just try and do it with people and sometimes it works and it's really great, but I don't know that I have hard and fast philosophies necessarily.
Katrina:if, if you don't have a hard and fast philosophy and it's not structured like a traditional, you know, therapeutic modality, what are you listening for when you hear them describe their version of the argument?
Seth:Katrina, that is a very Good question. I think just like when we work with individuals, we, you know, therapists will over time develop a knack to notice the habits that create maladaptive patterns, right? So like if you, if you think CVT and you think cognitive distortions, right? The different, the different thought patterns that get People in their own way, you know, a lot of times in relationship, there's similar versions of that, right? When people are rigid in an area that I've seen other couples be flexible, it makes me curious. I want to explore that rigidity, right? If, if people are Uh, denying empathy or denying connection in an area that I see other people freely give it. That makes me curious, right? I want to explore that. So I just look, I think I try and identify the places and the reasons that the connection suffers and then just kind of open the box and dig into that,
Katrina:Yeah. I mean, and I, I think that's a good way for you to, to challenge your own biases,
Seth:I guess.
Katrina:you know what I mean?
Seth:well, yeah, yeah, and I and I don't know I think I have I'm sure I have biases I feel them sometimes respect and things like that. Like i'll i'm not a very um, Reserved therapist like i'm pretty dynamic. I get emotional at times I i've lost my temper and I don't know how therapeutically appropriate that is I you know if I have a client Or a couple and someone says well, fuck you, you know, I'm like damn like I jump on them and I confront that right? And so I mean, maybe there's a bias there, but I think largely Maybe one thing that I have going for me is I don't necessarily think there is a right way to live or a right way to relationship if we are Acting in good faith and doing our best to meet our partner's needs, right? So relationships look different for every single couple that comes in And and utilizing curiosity to help a couple figure out Their own flow their own communication style their own dynamics rather than Maybe trying to cram them into some kind of therapeutic orientation. I I guess that is something I believe in
Katrina:Mm-Hmm. Yeah, because I, I think that each couple creates a living, breathing thing. The relationship is so unique and so you could have a totally different relationship with one partner versus with another partner, you know? So, and I like that you really honor that and you're not just stuck in a box.'cause I think a lot of therapists, you know, especially in grad school, they kind of teach us just like rigidity in a lot of ways. And that just does not work out in the real life scenario.
Seth:Doesn't seem to. And I think, I think that that thought creates a space. Like, I've had conversations uh, like if I have a client where one partner is a drinker and that creates a lot of frac you know, a lot of friction in the room. And, and I've heard people come in and say uh, well I have all these friends whose, whose wives don't care about this. And I'm like, well, yeah, but yours does, man. So like, that doesn't matter. You can't have that relationship. You're in this relationship. If you want to stay in this relationship, you gotta do what this partner wants. You can't get mad that she isn't someone who would be more convenient for you. Right? And again, and then, and then, you know, you look at the other person and you're like, Oh, by the way, why do you think about alcohol the way that you think? What, what, where, are there places you can loosen up? Does he get out of hand or is it, is it you being a little bit more reserved? Right? Like, just balancing the dynamics, exploring perspective.
Katrina:and kind of taking away other people's boxes.
Seth:I think so. That's a good way to put it.
Katrina:Mm-Hmm. Yeah.'cause it's like you're, you're helping them to see a perspective outside of that and taking away that perfectionistic mindset when it comes to having a partner. And I think today, in today's world, there's a lot of talk about like red flags in relationships and throwing around around the term narcissism and gaslighting and all of this stuff. And it's just like adding more structure to how your partner is supposed to show up, you know? And people are, yeah, adamant on boundaries and things like that. But really in real life love is freedom. And it sounds like that you're kind of teaching that of like, no, this is the partner. You got It's not a build a bear partner. Yeah. That's cool. And then
Seth:I would never have described myself that way, but I really like the way that you did it. That makes me sound pretty good.
Katrina:On board with that because you are, you are great. And you know, I have, um, several individuals that I've sent to you for couple therapy and I always get the best feedback when they come to me and they're like, oh my gosh, Seth is so amazing. And he just like really calls out their shit and, you know, whatever. And I just love it so much.
Seth:that's good. That's good. I was, I am, uh, I think we are very privileged to be in the profession that we are, to, uh, have people entrust us with exploring some really intimate and heavy shit, right? And, and I don't know, most people are fucking cool and most people are interesting and it just turns into a conversation. Try and laugh a lot together and Take some of the heat and the pressure off or hurt and you know, the buy in maybe as I think through the different components of my work, buy in is a, is a component also, uh, like there's all the means that are like, how many therapists does it take to change a tire? And it like depends on if the tire is ready to change, right? Like there is something to that, you know, if, if couples come in. And they're I usually ask pretty early on are you guys doing the work like where are you guys at right and and Introduce the idea that it's going to take both of them like putting energy into the relationship in a way that I don't think people know they need to usually going into A long term committed relationship or a marriage
Katrina:So you're kind of setting the expectation of how therapy's gonna go.
Seth:not just therapy though. Like I've got this whole spiel. I will share my spiel. Okay, I think Disney fucked us, and not just with, the way they ruined Star Wars, but also because early on in my life, I remember seeing the concept of happily ever after. And, and I've worked with so many couples who come in and I'm like, yeah, it's a relationship. You got to work to stay connected. You got to work. And I have had very successful, very intelligent people go, I've never thought of it that way. I never considered that I would have to work on my marriage or, or put effort into the connection. Right? And then, and then very well intentioned things, like having kids or, or whatever else, right? Like, we introduce these things that are positive, but they, they become barriers to connection. And there's this slow disconnect that is really sneaky and insidious and happens over time. And people don't really realize, I think, the work that we have to put in to consistently champion and value the primary relationship, the primary connection. not just the expectation, not just the expectation for therapy, but I think also the expectation for like a good relationship. I would say, I got all these quotes, being in a bad relationship. Being in a good relationship takes a lot of work.
Katrina:Yeah. I think whenever we are single or we're in the honeymoon phase, our definition of work is, is way different than what the actual work looks like. So how would you describe what the actual work looks like versus like our honeymoon phase?
Seth:I don't know, you know, you meet and everything is exciting and new and hot. the stuff that we connect over in some respects is pretty topical. Like it's not, it's not building a life together. It's not, it's not combining two ideologies. And figuring out where your roadblocks are and my roadblocks are, right? Like, there's just a lot more depth than I think people consider. Especially if we're talking about trying to get along with someone for like 50 fucking years.
Katrina:And what about the, um, two different ideologies? That's something that I come across all the time where a couple comes in and they just have a different belief on, I mean, multiple things, whether that's religion or how to raise the kids or, uh, relationship roles. How do you handle that?
Seth:I With uh with great delicacy I try to I mean, I you know, there are I'm, kind of a hopeless romantic and i'm an optimist and I think most situations can work, but there are deal breakers Um, a heavy drinker with someone who has a, a traumatic history of alcohol, like that, that, that relationship's not going to go. I've seen atheists and Christians work. I've seen that go down in flames. Democrats and Republicans, especially now, it feels like that's more of a deal breaker than maybe it would have been in the past at different points. Uh, you know, um a a trump supporter and a liberal probably not gonna build a home together um, but short of short of extremes You know, it's back to that empathy and I think it's back to building awareness As to why people feel about their ideology the way that they do Right? Like if you have this, if you have this deep belief about the right way to raise kids, well, why? And where does that come from? And where did you learn it? And how did it get developed? Right? Did you read a bunch of books? Is it something your parents did? Is it something that you believe because of trauma on your part, right? Like you don't want to repeat the same patterns that your parents did or things that happened to you Because then there's blind spots in there. And so then, you know, you try and hunt out the blind spots and and hopefully it's a very collaborative experience for the couple and the therapist and you look for the Compromises you look for the places that people can bend you look for the places that people can lean in even if it's uncomfortable for them
Katrina:And how do you tell the difference between what's a deal breaker and what's not? I mean, is it just when they reach a point where they can't lean in anymore?
Seth:Yeah, I think so. I don't think there's a, uh, you know, therapy's a lot more art than science, right? That's a good, that's a good quote. And it's different for everyone. You know, there are people that reach a point where I'm just like, damn, like They're not, this is not going to work. And then it, and then it, you know, you try and introduce that idea gently and see where that conversation goes. You know, the guy that is my therapy mentor, Bruce Ramsey, who's the trainer at the company that you and I started out at, um, he, he said something that used to stick with me when he talked about like the idea of a relationship dying with dignity and how hard that is. And I think a part of the honest exploration of couples if there is an impact that they're not going to be able to work through is like, is there a way then to separate with some modicum of respect and love and cordiality, you know,
Katrina:you may have to repeat that section about Bruce'cause it kind of cut out his name.
Seth:Oh, did? Bruce Rumsey. Loveland, Colorado. I don't know his company. He's very, he's kind of a highfalutin therapist that taught us a lot. me a lot, especially.
Katrina:Bruce is the best
Seth:He is the best. I don't want him to know that I said that though, so don't send this to him.
Katrina:yeah. I won't. He doesn't need to know. He already has a big enough head That's right.
Seth:right For all the, the budding therapists out there, I think in couples, you have to send it way more than in individuals with the level of directness that you have, with the level of confrontation, with, with the way that you manage the session and, and, That may also, to some degree, be something that I do differently than other therapists. I've gotten a lot of feedback that I'm way more direct and I say way more direct things to my people than a lot of therapists. And I think that is part of what, to whatever degree I'm actually successful with couples, is helpful for me.
Katrina:That's something I wanted to bring up too.'cause you mentioned that earlier, how sometimes that you'll just get angry at a couple, you'll be emotional in the room with them. And we're just very, we're taught in grad school from what, my takeaway was is to just be as neutral as possible. However, I don't think that's what people are paying us for. They wanna actually know what the problem is. If they wanted somebody to be their friend, they would go talk to their friends, but instead they need somebody to call it like it is.
Seth:Yeah, you know, I, I self disclose a lot and, at times I will use self disclosure as a tool to, normalize conflict. Like I'll, I'll tell people about stupid fights that me and my wife get into, but I, I've got a little bit of strategy, right? I'm not just going in and bitching to my clients about like, I, I do it with intention because I guess I want them to know that. That the stuff they're dealing with is normal, right? I know I have all the tools You know for the most part I guess even if at times I suck at using them like I know that I know and I still come home and I get defensive and And uh, and I react poorly to my wives and I I can be forgetful and we disagree on things and have to work through It with everyone else, right? I think being more real in the room Allows us both to normalize the flow of a relationship where a lot of people feel stuck or feel ashamed, but, but also being more real allows us to model emotional engagement, right? To, to be able to engage in a raw way with our clients and model that potential conflict and then throttle through it and, and, and have the conversation using my therapeutic techniques or the way that I talk to people and blah, blah, blah, whatever that is, right? And then it. And then it shows the couples that there's a way to do those types of conversations differently than maybe they are recognized to do them, or habituated is probably a better word.
Katrina:Yeah, it's like that modeling.'cause I think sometimes when you just throw out, a concept, it's really hard to grasp whenever you're really angry at your partner versus having an actual example and just being like, oh, okay, now I can see it. Because there's something that words can't say, you know, there's like more depth to the stories. so I love that you're able to like, be extremely authentic and I think that's what makes you so good at what you do. I mean, when you walk in the room, like we know it's Seth you, you come full force. Yeah.
Seth:Just me. I appreciate that. you know, it's interesting. I, I have a friend who, uh, who's going to therapy and, and his therapist is very reserved and very, uh, I think adheres more to what grad school would say is, is. Appropriate therapy than maybe I do. And it really works for him. Right. And so, I mean, there is something to be said about, um, fit with our clients. Right. But, but if I have to choose, I'm always going to err on the side of authenticity. I've gotten too much feedback from my clients about appreciating my style and appreciating a little bit more rawness or a little bit more dynamic approach than maybe, other more reserved therapists will provide, right? you find your people and then they send you other people and then you have a caseload if everything goes well.
Katrina:And how would you encourage people if they're out looking for a couple therapists? Like how do they know what to look for?
Seth:I mean, it's fit. when I refer clients, I very rarely give them one person. If I'm like, if I know this client very well, and I'm like, this is a good fit. This person, I'll give them like a name and tell them just to call. but a lot of times I'm like, try on different people. Here's two people. Here's three people that I trust. Go meet with them. See what you think. If none of them fit, if you feel like they're all duds, you just don't connect, like come back and I'll give you some more names, right? Like it really is, I think hunting for the fit. And there's, you know, when I have people come in and then So yeah, we tried Therapy three years ago and it was terrible and we didn't get anywhere And so we thought all therapy was like that and we just didn't go back, you know And then they're three years further into dog shit and it's that much more work to help them heal
Katrina:Yeah. I know a lot of people get burned out. They'll just go to one therapist and feel like the therapist was siding with their partner and they felt attacked, and then they just quit.
Seth:and that's so tricky right like I, I'm always curious, though, because my brain goes to like, well, was that the therapist's fault, or do you have some kind of predisposition to feeling attacked? do you have an insecurity or, or a fragility that leads you to feel, you know, can you take feedback? And, and I don't know, I don't know that I always come out of the gate swinging, like maybe I think I do, like I do think I, there's a delicacy within the first few sessions as I'm getting to know people, and I'll poke and prod, you know, kind of observe their reactions, take note if someone gets heated or whatever, and then as I get to know them better, and we build trust, then I can circle back around to that, right? And be like, Hey, you remember when you got mad at me three weeks ago when I said that thing? What was that about? What happened?
Katrina:Yeah, exactly. You know? And I think if people come into couples therapy, very defensive, it's because they're scared. It's like walking into an X-ray machine. You don't know what you're gonna find. And having a therapist in the room who's a trained professional at reading people, you're going to be seen. And sometimes that's a really scary thing, and especially with a stranger, you know? And I think a lot of times people want to avoid it because they don't want to be seen in that way. They don't want their flaws exposed, and they don't want it to be called out. Yeah. And they want their side to be really validated.
Seth:Well, and, and I. I think when it goes right There's ways to do both right like people don't people don't arrive at an impasse in their relationship because they they fucking want to you know, no one wants to Have a a frosty marriage where they walk around the house Avoiding each other or, you know, sitting on opposite sides of the couch and, and faking connection or, you know, that's, it's terrible. And, and so I think a way that we can approach that is that if we're able to, if we're able to, again, build the relationship, build the trust, but then validate that people get wind up where they are because. of shit that has happened to them because again, of their ideologies or their traumas or their experiences, right? And you can validate that there, can be two troops. People can do dumb things or fucked up shit in relationships and have to them really rich, reasonable, understandable reasons for doing those things. Right. And if we're able to validate that while also saying, Hey, here's a different perspective, here's what I see happening, here's how I think, even though I can understand why you are this way or why you think this way, here's the impact that I think it's having on your partner and on your connection, then they're, you know, hopefully there's some buy in there because they do feel seen and heard and they're able to go, Oh, I didn't think of it that way. I guess I am a little insecure, or I guess I do drink too much, or I guess, I guess, I guess, I guess. Right? Like, whatever that is. And that's the art, to whatever degree, that makes me sound a little bit more, uh I don't know knowledgeable than I feel like I am like i'm a artist. I don't think so. Just another dude
Katrina:I think you are though. I think that's what we do. This is why I love it. It's the creativity of, of working with people. It's never, we just don't come in and get the same thing every day. Ever. I never get the same thing twice. So I kind of wanna talk about men. So a majority of my clients, I think it's like 61% of my clients are men.
Seth:Really? Good for you.
Katrina:Yeah. It's one of my favorite populations to work with. I don't know why it just fits. Um, but something that, you know, I find with men, is there still that stigma around going to therapy, right? And traditionally it's men. What is it? 70% of women or something is, are the people who initiate divorce? And so as somebody who is a man who's in your masculine energy, who's just like, you know, a bro, what would you say to people who are maybe hesitant or have a partner who is hesitant? You know, because it's like, well, going to therapy is weakness and that is a true belief that people have about it.
Seth:But I guess I kind of think that's bullshit. because when I have had those conversations It feels like it is perceived as weakness as it is perceived by other people Right? we are afraid to appear weak to others or to some part of ourselves, so we'll sit in misery instead of sacking up, having the courage to go in and explore, right? I don't know how true that is for a lot of people, but there's, or, or I guess whether people would agree with that. But there is a, there is a courage to going in and knowing that you're going to be exposed, right? And knowing that you're going to get called out. And and having i've had so many men come in and say I was hesitant because I I didn't want to dig in I didn't want to know what was behind the door. I didn't want to I didn't want to have to be emotional I didn't want to and and at the end of the day like that feels Very much like fear to me, which is the irony of that whole Masculinity thing right is that is that if it's weakness, but it's driven by fear then isn't that weakness? Like, you know and so that and that and that confuses me
Katrina:Mm-Hmm. And I think it's hard to understand that because it's hard to recognize fear, I think because it comes off as like aggression I have a lot of clients who come into me who are men, and it's their first time coming to therapy ever. and they'll just start out the session just being like, I don't know if this is gonna work at all. And like, I'm totally fine with that, you know? And I'm like, Mm-Hmm, okay. And then like three, four weeks in, they're like, okay, actually this is really great Right? And I think it's because, at least from what I've seen, it's because they think that it's going to be like you see on the tv. And maybe it is with a lot of therapists. I mean, on my search for a personal therapist, I've encountered that too, where people are just very like rigid and you know, how does that make you feel a therapist?
Seth:boring fucking boring. No disrespect any other therapists out there That's not my intention but I I think we do have to acknowledge the impact that that level of Reservation can have on a lot of the people that come into our office Right, but again, I will always give the caveat that there are people out there who I think that works better for And that's why, again, I don't know stylistically. I think it's more about fit and you and I align, I think, in our approaches to a degree. So, so we have similar people, which is why the people that you send me, like me, if I say you people, they like you, right? Like it's fit. It is.
Katrina:And I think it, it depends on where you're at in your journey of growth too. Because I've searched for a therapist, who I just needed them to just listen and validate my feelings. Like I didn't want them to, to really challenge me.'cause I'm like, this is hard, and I'm going through grief. And then I'll transition to a different therapist where I'm like, okay, tell me exactly what to do. I want somebody who's very rigid tell me how to practice these things. What do I do daily? And then whenever I outgrow that, now I'm with my current therapist and he's very existential. And so I think that it does really just depend on like what you're looking for.
Seth:I love the way that you say there's probably stages. There's a there's a progression that you go through and finding a person that meets you at whatever stage you're at is the real is how we keep the therapy good I think
Katrina:so one of the questions that I have too is what are things that nobody thinks about that can affect your relationship that you've noticed?
Seth:kids kids man, it's so Common, I don't know what your breakdown is, but a huge section of my couples are our couples with like a two year old and a six year old or a a Four year old and a one year old right or just two little kids. I feel it man Uh, Lisa and I talk about this. I cheat. I tell all my clients I cheat because like I'm in all the conversations so I get to see like, oh, that's not working for them. I better make sure I don't do that shit at home, right? and kids, there is this nefarious and completely unintentional thing that happens. When we have this invader like my son he wakes up before us and he comes in and he climbs in bed And three years ago, we rolled over the sun comes in up, you know Have a cuddle kiss a little bit and now we got this interloper in that space And he's the best and he comes in and he makes us laugh and he's cute as shit But he is absolutely a barrier to connection And I think it is so innocent and so sneaky how kids will with all the best intentions of the world, erode connection. They occupy so much space and they are cute and lovable and defenseless. And so people are like, no, it's our kids. Nothing wrong with that. Except then, you know, then I have the other set of couples that I work with who have two kids in college and one more about to leave. And they're like, I don't know who this person is anymore. You know what I mean? And it's this really organic totally natural and Unintentional attrition to connection
Katrina:you know, I've thought about whenever you are in a relationship with somebody, you are actually not in a relationship with that same person forever because we change and grow so much. And so, like what you're saying is like, okay, you've reached a different phase of life, right? You became a parent and now you're the parent of somebody who's an adult and what does that look like and how have you changed and how have your values changed and your belief systems and everything.'cause it, it molds us and it changes us as it should. But now it's like, okay, now I get to, I get the opportunity to fall in love with my partner all over again.
Seth:Yeah, yeah, and well and you asked me earlier what I what I think the work is I think that was the way you phrased it, right and for me The work is staying connected, staying in touch, staying in sync to, to whatever degree we're able to do that throughout all the different stages, right, because we're not going to be the same. Like, it is a, it is a radical change. I've got, I've got some couples right now that are sticking out my mind, but it's, uh, you know, the, the, the, the women, the woman carried the baby. And so she. Was mandated to begin thinking like a mother like biologically, right? And there are so many dudes that don't get the message, you know, they're like, ah, she's at home with the kids I can still go out with my boys. I can still do my thing, right? And and and the you know, the mom has had to sacrifice Her time her energy her passions throughout the process of pregnancy. Shout out to my wife who's doing that right now with our second Um, you know, and and the guy, if we're not paying attention, if we're not empathizing, they don't make the leap at the same time that the woman will, right? And so then there's this, there's a distance, there's a distance in expectations, there's a distance in the connection, right? Having to think more like a parent as opposed to a single man. Or or even a man who's just in a relationship with a woman where where You know the time the connection the sex everything flows more freely than it does when again you're sharing your space with an interloper Even an
Katrina:mm-Hmm, And how do you get back to that place where you lean into parenthood?
Seth:Um I I use the phrase surrender a lot Like, I mean, we, you know, people got to take ownership. Like at some point, well not for everyone. Sometimes mistakes happen, right? Sometimes we're like 18 and the condom breaks. But, but for a lot of people, like they said, Hey, do you want to have a kid? And the other person was like, yeah, I think I want to have a kid. And, understanding that once you decide to invite someone else into your life, That means you got to take ownership of that. It's not your time anymore. Same thing with getting married, right? Like you see, I don't know if you have couples like this, but, or, or just dating in general, sharing a life with someone, if you are sharing a life with someone, then you do not get to live entirely on your terms anymore. That's not what sharing means,
Katrina:I wonder why it's so difficult to acknowledge that though. Like I think that in the fantasy world of it, you know, it's like, oh, this is just gonna be this thing. And you get to pick and choose in your fantasies what stuff you give up But like in reality then it kind of hits you and you're like, oh, I actually have to like, give up something that is really valuable to me. Like maybe my alone time more often than before. Especially if you have kids, right?'cause kids don't have little boundaries, you know, they follow you everywhere.
Seth:I think it's hard because We don't want to give up our shit, you know I don't want to I don't want to play less video games I don't want to not go to the gym when I have been going to the gym forever I don't want to read less books. I don't want to spend less time Watching shows I don't want to go on less hikes I don't want to go whitewater rafting or kayaking less or like whatever your thing is that you have to sacrifice and again Like that's where I think for our couples We can validate that. Like, yeah, yes, absolutely. I also would like to play more video games than, uh, change diapers. 10 out of 10. Uh, but that's not my life, right? And so again, validating but also, um, mandating ownership. To whatever degree we as therapists are actually able to mandate anything, right? Encouraging ownership is maybe a Softer way to say that, but no, I think it's hard because who wants to do that, but that's where that's where again, like stepping out Zooming out of like our life and our feelings getting another getting another person's perspective And and normalizing like hey, actually you chose this Like when you decided to have kids here's what that means If you want to be the dad that I hear you saying you want to be or the husband that wants this Relationship to work or the wife that wants this relationship to work, right? Like we have to own we have to own the need for surrender.
Katrina:Mm-Hmm. you know, something that I've been learning about recently is Daoism you know, it's basically just kind of like going with the flow of life. Like understanding that everything is as it should be and just move along with it, you know? And so. When I think about the progression of relationships, I always think like, okay, being single has incredible benefits. I can do whatever I want, whenever I want, go wherever I want. I have no kids, you know, I can date whoever I want. All of that stuff. And simultaneously, I'm lonely and I wanna partner to share my life with and to do things with. Right? And then whenever you decide to get into a relationship, then it's like, okay, well now I'm giving up some of my free time. I'm giving up all of the, my ability to date other people, but now I have that companionship, you know? And then you have kids and it's like, well, I want to love my child and build a family and like, get to experience those things with my kid. And I'm also giving up some of my hobbies that I used to do. And then whenever the kids move out, like there's, there's pros and cons to every single stage that you're in. And I think that a lot of times we forget about that and we, we don't go back to the why of what we're doing, you know, it's just like fantasizing about the past, like, ah, man. Wasn't it so nice when I could go to the gym whenever I wanted, but then your kid smiles at you and you're like, Ugh, okay. That, that made it worth it. Yeah. You know, but it's leaning into those moments and recognizing like, there is joy here available right now, and Plan B is still pretty freaking awesome.
Seth:that's when I use the word perspective, that's what I'm talking about, right? Like, what are you looking at? What do you really want? You know, people get in trouble when they, when they want to have it all. And I don't think it's wrong to want to have it all necessarily, but if we want it so much that we stop being flexible and stop letting go and stop adapting. Then it becomes a problem, right? Like, I don't know. I, I am, uh, I am happy to announce that I'm going to try and get ripped at least one more time. I have always been healthy and man having a kid, it happens, man. Just time and energy and I and I think what that means for me is I have to get up I got to get up in the morning in a way that I historically would not have right So it's not that I can't have it all but I have to choose to let go of sleep or let go of staying up Late so I can get enough rest and I can have what I want and still be the dad that I want right like Like, again, that's ownership, and, and when people want everything but don't want to take ownership of a need to be flexible, there's a kind of an egocentrism to that, you know, that's not gonna work. And, and a lot of, a lot of couples get in trouble.
Katrina:It makes me think about that study and I, I may have to look up where this was actually done, but there was a study where they took rats and they put two rats in different. Um, wheels and the first wheel that rat could just run as much as it wanted, and it was connected to the other rat and the other wheel, and that rat had no choice on whether or not it was gonna have to run. And so both of them were doing the exact same amount of exercise, but the first rat was able to choose how fast to run, when to stop, when to pause. The second rat was just on for the ride, right? However, the first rat was the only rat that actually reaped the benefits of the exercise, and the second rat wasn't. And so there's something about choosing it, right? Like it's kind of that leaning into, leaning into where you're at and just radically accepting it. You know, like if you're stuck in traffic, you can be pissed off and ruin the whole thing or be like, oh, okay, well here's an opportunity for me to listen to that audio book that I've been wanting to listen to that haven't had time to. And I think that this is the same in relationships as well as being like, this is the reality though. Yeah, I can't have this utopia, and Utopia is actually here. I'm just not paying attention to it. I'm focusing on the things that I'm not having and making myself miserable. And it's, it's easy to do. I mean, we all do it all the time, but to train yourself to like, look for the positives and lean into that. I mean, there's something to say about that. Our mind is very powerful, and I think that impacts our relationships as well, right? Because then it starts to taint how we view our partner and their intentions. Right? You know, I mean, it all just kind of trickles down.
Seth:You, you asked me earlier, um, about like meeting people where they're at when they come in and what you just said, um, like, like being mindful of our perspective and what we're looking at, what we're using our energy. That reminds me of like, it's a, I think it's a Gottman thing, negative sentiment override. Like I put that out there pretty early when I worked with couples, especially when, when I sense a lot of resentment between the two of them. Right. Because we do, we, we see what we're looking for. Another Bruce Rumsey ism when we scan the Serengeti of our minds, like what is the shit we're picking out? Right. Are we noticing the stuff that our partner is getting right? Are we noticing the times that they are there for us and they and they go the extra mile? Or are we just noticing the shit they do that irritates us or hurts us or makes us feel criticized or some kind of way? Right like like that's why introducing for me at least Introducing the idea of perspective pretty early on is such a big part of what I do Because absolutely, our minds are powerful tools.
Katrina:So speaking of resentment, what do you do to notice that your partner is trying their hardest and whatever, but they're still coming off as mean. They're still, they're not leaning into empathy. Like, what do you do if it's so one-sided? Because that's something that, you know, I have friends that come to me about, clients come to me about, and they're like, what do I do? I'm leaning into the empathy. I'm trying my hardest, I'm, I'm trying to implement these healthy, this healthy conflict, but it's just not reciprocated. It's just going, you know, it's just feeding into kind of Validating them that they're Right. Right. Because when you lean into empathy, you're like, oh yeah, I understand where you're coming from and here's how I feel. But at the same time, I, I, I, I kind of notice that people will kind of take that and run you know, like when you're in conflict, they're like, oh, you agree with me? Yeah.'cause I'm right. And then they just take it and run with it. Right. And that's where that like ego kind of comes in and like, they're not taking ownership of their stuff. But what kind of advice would you give to somebody who's in that position where their partner's just is just hitting a brick wall?
Seth:Well, if it's the partner, that's the balance of patience and engaging with good faith, right? But if it's the clinician We call that shit out right like hey, I I think I see Danny boy getting it right like really trying What is going on? What is what is preventing you from letting go of that? Letting go of whatever right and then again and then like oh, well, it makes sense. He was in He was a douche for eight years probably really hard for you to trust that after six months He's gonna keep you know, stay consistent keep on but but then Here's another philosophical therapy thing that I think about and talk with people about is that I think there's a point where forgiveness, uh, becomes a choice and trust becomes a choice, where that shit is like an action word, not a noun. we don't earn forgiveness like it is something that is given to us. Although we do, right? Again, the guy or the gal who's ever been the, the nefarious actor, or both of them, we gotta get it right. We gotta act in good faith. We gotta show up for our family, or, or watch our drinking, or mind our anger, or whatever the scenario is, right? But the other person who's mired in resentment, like at some point, If if our partner's been getting it right for a while and we still can't let go like we got we have to confront that Within ourselves and that becomes that becomes a choice, right? When I think of a fair recovery, which is in my opinion The hardest one of the hardest forms of couple therapy, right? The times that the couples I have worked with have gotten it, right? There is a tipping point where the person who was cheated on has to go Okay. All right. I'm gonna try again. I'm going to trust you again. I'm going to trust that this isn't all fake and and there's never a time Where the the partner that cheated couldn't hide something or couldn't keep fucking around or couldn't keep trying to be sneaky But but but it's it's trust, you know And the same thing I think holds true for resentment Like if we if we see the growth in our partner if we see the growth in the connection And there is a piece of us that won't budge on that then we have to confront that within ourselves And that doesn't mean that the partner who's growing Can be like hey, hurry up and forgive me, right? Like you're the one that fucked around for a long time like you gotta wait you gotta earn it But at some point the other person has to check themselves and go like, okay, this has been good Why am I having a hard time letting go? And I think that has to be a part of the conversation both so that the person who is growing feels supported and seen. And so that dynamic is addressed in a, in a direct and therapeutic way.
Katrina:And how do you think that people switch into that?
Seth:I don't know. I, you know,
Katrina:it's kind of the, that magic behind it, you know, of like, just something happens.
Seth:You know, there's, there's a moment where, and, and that's part of why I think I'm so insistent. On making that a part of the conversation because I want to explore that because I think it's different for everyone You know most people I I think and maybe i'm wrong about this But most people who come in were in love at one point had a connection at one point and and The prospect of of getting back to that or or probably more likely building something new and even better Right, like for a lot of people that's enough to go Okay. All right. I'm gonna try. I'm gonna let go of this. I'm going to Work to see you. I'm going to challenge myself to look for the things that you do that make me feel loved Not the things you do that historically have hurt me But again, like you say that's the magic of it because that's different for everyone You know, there's no checklist for that.
Katrina:It just happens when it happens. And for me, since I don't see couples right now, I am working with like the individuals on this side, right? So like I'll have individuals who are in a, a fair recovery situation where they're having to forgive their partner. And, there are two approaches that I kind of take with helping them get to that place. Like,'cause they're wanting the relationship to continue working, right? Like, it's different if they're just walking away. But I think the first one, and I kind of learned both of these through Matthew Hussey, who's like a dating coach, which is shocking. He's incredibly brilliant. So you guys should check him out. But, um, so one of them is just learning to trust yourself because something that Matthew says often is that it's not about whether or not you can trust your partner because you don't know. You never know if you can trust your partner. If they're gonna do something, they will. But can you trust yourself to handle it if it happens again? Right. Because that's where it comes in.'cause people are afraid of that. The collateral damage of that trust being broken again. Can I survive it again? Can I handle it? And, and so that's what I kind of remind people of, of like, you've, you handled it already. Yeah. And same happens if you've never been cheated on and you're afraid of it and you're feeling really jealous. Right? What is it in you that's afraid that you're not gonna be able to survive this? Right? And how can you build that trust with yourself? Because it's not about the other person. People are going to make mistakes. We don't have control over what they do and say, the only thing we have control over is ourselves. And I think in a fair recovery, it's a lot about trying to control the other person, like controlling their location, controlling who they talk to, right? And it, it is all like this grasping to get back control because internally they feel that loss. And then the second thing. Is and this is something that Matthew said. He said, the the best way to be chill is fuck with plan A, is to have a plan B that you're excited about. And so I always talk with them about plan B. Okay, if this relationship doesn't work out, what is your plan B? And their plan B is usually something catastrophic. I'm gonna die alone and it's awful, and they're gonna move on with somebody prettier than me. Right? Something absolutely horrible. However, there's like a thousand different plan B's that you get to choose from. And so I like to help them remember that like, you can walk away from this. If at any point it gets to be too much. And that gives them permission to stay, you know, to just be like, oh, okay, I actually have this freedom now I can leave. I'm not trapped in this situation where I, it's black or white, you know, it's just like, oh, I can give this more time. You know, because plan B is pretty cool too.
Seth:I, I really like that. I think that kind of empowerment is important. there's times that, and again, I don't know how therapeutic this is, but Uh when couples come in after a really bad fight, right and they're like, I just don't know if this is gonna work I'm, like i'm like, okay You know, maybe it won't but but I think where I challenge people is that at times That mindset becomes permission to stay stuck instead of having to take ownership Of moving one way or the other right like you don't have to be in this relationship. Absolutely not But if you're going to be in it But the plan is just to stay mad or hurt or keep doing the same bullshit that you guys have been doing for 10 years That just is devastating each other. Well, that's not a great plan either, right? You guys don't have to stay there's probably easier people out there for you to be in a relationship with who don't Doesn't have all the history and the contempt and the hurt But if you don't want to do that for whatever reason, the kids, money, the hopeful restoration of what we had, whatever that is, well then, well then you have to learn to navigate through situations even as difficult as this, right? Like you're not a, neither of you are a victim in this. You're, you're choosing to be here. So if we're going to choose to be here, then let's, let's do the work. Let's dig in. And that's, and that's probably a dramatic oversimplification. So, you know, if we're gonna have that conversation, we have to go about it in a way that is more delicate than I am right here on the air, on the air. Hello. listeners, whatever. I don't do interviews. Um, you know, but we got to go about it in a way that is maybe a little bit more tender so that they can hear that. But there's, there's truth to what you're saying. They're not stuck. It's hard. It's going to be work either way. It's going to be work to stay and it's going to be work to go. So empowering our people to lean a direction as they are ready is a big piece of good work. I think.
Katrina:I think so too. because life happens, you know, and I, I think too, like when couples are, you know, worried about losing their partner to say cheating or whatever, I'm like, you can lose your partner to death. You know what I mean? Like, you have to have a plan B and it's not a plan B, meaning this is your backup plan. It's more just if life does it, if Plan A doesn't work out the way I want it to, that's okay. Like I'm gonna go full force all in on plan A, and then if for whatever reason I don't have control over it anymore and it redirects me to plan B, here's my plan B.
Seth:Well, I, When I hear you say that the word that pops to my mind is resilience right like the uh, I do couples and anxiety are probably my two lanes that I feel the most often and we can't go down the anxiety boat or this will be a three hour podcast episode but When I do anxiety work and it's not too different than than what you're talking about with the relationship, right? I I don't think there's a cure for anxiety. I don't think it goes away. I do think we get better At recognizing and believing in our own fortitude and resilience and our ability to handle the things that happen to us Right, like, you know horrible things can happen in life And if to whatever degree we are able We believe that we can handle the stuff that comes down the pipe then we're going to have a shot, you know versus living in in fear whether that's fear of being hurt fear of being left fear of Patterns continuing in the relationship or whatever flavor of anxiety exists out for you in the world, right? Like it's resilience. That's what you're talking
Katrina:Mm-Hmm. Yeah. Which brings me back to Daoism. I mean, one way that I've described this for myself, I was talking to my friend Ben, Ben Adams, I,
Seth:hello ben
Katrina:I was talking to my friend Ben about this, about how I was just kind of struggling emotionally and I was like, I feel like I'm drowning, right? Like I just ki keep getting hit, hit with wave after wave after wave of just shit. You know? Like, I'm like, can life just steady out? But I forget that I'm a fish and I'm made for the waves, but this whole time I'm trying to find an island where I'm actually just gonna shrivel up and die, right? Like we, we are made for the waves of this. And I think that's what resilience is, and. The same thing with Daoism is just like you just, you go with the flow because that is life and part of life is the sad parts and the hard parts and the fighting parts and all of this stuff. And you just kind of lean into it with just like, oh, this is the part that I'm in right now. And that's okay'cause it's gonna change at any moment. And I think when we are stuck in these battles with our partner and it seems endless,'cause maybe it's been going on for years, it doesn't have to be endless and most likely it's not going to be.'cause people change, everything changes. That's like the only constant thing we have is that everything changes. You know, they say you don't step in the same river twice. Right? Same with relationships, you know, we are changing and growing and molding all the time. And so if you can shift yourself and implement that change and then your partner's going to respond differently, it may not be in the way that you want, but at least it'll push you maybe out of the relationship or it'll push you deeper in. You don't know. Right.
Seth:Yeah, I think people can only do the work that they can do. And, and the, the more pragmatic aspect of couples work at times is that relationships don't have to work, right? Like if you think about, All the attempts that people make, um, to be in a relationship and all the girlfriends and boyfriends and ex girlfriends and ex boyfriends, like very few people actually get it right the first time, even the high school sweethearts, right? I've, I've worked with high school sweethearts and they just have their own set of shit. Like they didn't go out and do life. They have to learn to do life together, not like go out and figure out who they are and then be in a relationship. When you're 30, you know, so it's just a different set of challenges and even those guys who get married very young, right? Like if you would divorce at 35, well, then bad news you broke up. It didn't work, right? Um, a lot of relationships don't work, but if we are Doing the work I think to explore ourselves and figure out the things that we do that will fuck up a relational dynamic or Hurt a partner or or make it hard for people to connect with us Well, then we have a shot even if it's not with the person that we started with There is someone out there who will be in a similar place to where we are and recognize it And we will have a chance to have something really good and rich with them. That's what happened when we meet me and my wife, we, uh, we talk like a lot of people, I don't know, people are like, I wish we would've met five years ago. And my wife and I were like, I do not. I think we would have gone down in a catastrophic fireball. I think we had to meet exactly when we did, because we had both done the work to be ready to have the relationship that we have. You know, I also have to circle back. Uh, that was a really deep fish metaphor that you made earlier. And I want you to know I'm here for it.
Katrina:Wow. Thanks. me in the midst of all my struggle.
Seth:That was nice.
Katrina:when you're forced into a situation to, I don't know, confront hardship, you stay, I don't know, you learn to adapt to it. I mean, we are meant to adapt. And I think that a lot of times in today's society, it's all about just like avoiding any kind of uncomfortable situations. I hear people talking all the time about boundaries and something that just really gets under my skin about boundaries is a lot of times it's an avoidance of something that's just difficult. It's not actually something that's harmful, it's just that you don't wanna deal with it or you don't have the tools to deal with it or whatever. And then we're lowering our resilience to things, and then whenever something happens, it that becomes a trauma because we haven't been building up that resilience, when do you think that couples should start going to couples therapy? You know, because I'm thinking about like, okay, you know, when you're putting lipstick on the pig, like that's far in, right? Like, that's when you're ever, you're like close to like that terminally ill, but you're kind of stuck there. Mm-Hmm. you know. So like where, where do people, where should they come to therapy? Like when do they know? Is it their first fight? Is it
Seth:Probably right after their first date. Um, no, I don't know. Not that early, but, but soon, right? Like for one reason or another, um, the more damage that is done, the harder it is to repair it. Right. And, and I, I, I don't know if it's like, apathy Or a comfort with disconnection or an assumption that we'll work through it on our own But but I think I think it requires some soul searching, you know, the couples That I appreciate a lot. Um Especially some that are still on my caseload are people that have done really good work and keep coming You know, every month, every two months, uh, just to keep that alive and keep those kinds of conversations going like it's maintenance, right? And I, I think that if more people thought about couples counseling as preventative maintenance, there would be better relationships. You know, like it's, it's no different than your fucking car. If you don't change your oil until the engine locks up, then you're going to, that's a lot bigger problem than going in and getting things tuned up. And you know, when people need to start coming, I don't know, premarital. Post marital find a person that you click with and and see where see where it goes And then at minimum you have a person that you trust you have a relationship with a clinician that's alive so if things do start going south you are able to To call on that and it's not like you have to start fresh. You don't have to go through the the early uncomfortable stuff I have couples that That go and then their life changes and they come back and we meet for three months or five months and we address whatever the new stuff is and I release them back into the wild and they call me and Having the relationship there. There's never anything wrong with that And, and even in a good relationship, if we're, if we're motivated to stay in sync, there's never a bad time to put that resource in place.
Katrina:I totally agree. I wish more people would view therapy as the preventative care versus the critical moments, because oftentimes they come in just expecting us to have some magic wand to fix it. But that's not how it works. Yeah, sometimes it does don't, but most of the time it doesn't. I mean, if you are, if one person's already, you know, threatening divorce, then it's like, okay, you guys are just, you know, maybe uncoupling in a, in a supervised way so that you can do it. You know, like you mentioned before, just like very respectfully, but, so start things are going good,
Seth:I think you're exactly right, I don't think there's a bad time to start that process. That, uh, the magic wand thing is funny too. That's the other thing, uh, along with communication, I always chuckle inwardly when people come in and they say, we need some tools. And I'm like, ugh, so tired of hearing people ask me for tools. You don't need tools, you need perspective. First then then you get tools but without the perspective, right? Like, you know without why you know, why does your husband? Why why do you husband get angry like you do, you know without exploring that? Telling them to go count to 100 When they fight is it going to do shit? You don't need tools. You need perspective. I think people want it to be simple and it isn't
Katrina:I think it is though. It's simple in shifting your view. Is it easy? Well, no,
Seth:Okay, all right simple not easy easy easy not simple I can't remember which Order that goes in. Yeah, I I agree um You know, in theory, the roadmap is pretty clear, but, but living that out, you know, learning to rewrite 30, 40, 50 years of our own personal views of the patterns in our relationship, man, that's not. That's not that's not easy
Katrina:man. I love that though. I love what you said.'cause I think that's kind of the golden nugget that I take away from this is like that it is about shifting your perspective first.'cause a lot of times it's just like, hand me a rule book because I don't have one. And like, what am I doing or saying wrong? And it's like. That's, that's the, the context or the content, you know, not the context of the situation, like that's the surface level of what's happening, but let's get to what's deeper. So I'm, I'm glad that you named that.'cause I guess I've never thought about it that way, that it really is about the perspective.
Seth:like when people come in Identifying like what is the pattern but not just the pattern right and maybe that's where if i'm hearing you, right? You'd say okay. Here's the pattern. So here's things to do to address the pattern But if we don't talk about the whys, oh man, those tools just don't have anything to latch onto. Like it's, it's not just here's the pattern, it's like why does this pattern exist? What is both of your part in this pattern? Where do those parts come from in your life, in your history, in your beliefs? Right. There's just we got to go deeper, deeper, deeper, deeper.
Katrina:Yep. Which goes back to your whole theme of just like taking that like radical ownership.
Seth:Yep. for any perspective couples there. It's not that's if there's one thing that I feel like has worked for me is that when the couple buys into that, they can move when it's when it's not about pointing the finger at the other person. And saying well i'll change when they change this or I can change when they change this If they go, all right, i'm gonna change and trust that you will too Then there's movement, I appreciate your time Appreciate you asking me to come on and talk about stuff. I will be happy to Know the next brilliant successful podcaster And I will continue my fade into obscurity.
Katrina:Thank you so much for coming on here. I really appreciate it.
HyperX QuadCast S-3:As a reminder, I am a licensed therapist, but I am not your therapist. Therefore, this is not a substitute for therapy or therapeutic advice. If you'd like information on Seth and how to contact him, I'd love to link to his profile in the description. Be sure to subscribe and send this out to those in your life. Also sending you guys lots of love this Valentine's day.
