The Therapy Alchemist
Change is not just about the science and research. Mental health isn't just what we characterize as a disorder or not. It's also about the mystical ways in which we change and grow. Science can't study everything about our inner spirit/soul.
On this podcast, a Licensed Professional Counselor in Colorado dives into the spaces that science cannot go. Discussing what ACTUAL growth and change look like. Filling in the gaps that the pop-psychology world misses, completely ignores, or sometimes shames. Plus some tips and tricks along the way to help you achieve your own personal legend.
The Therapy Alchemist
#18: Why Women Chose the Bear with Brent (ExPatriarch)
In today’s episode, I talk to my friend, Brent who runs the @expatriarch account. We examine the intricate roles of patriarchy and power dynamics in contemporary society. Together we explore the impacts of societal norms on gender dynamics, touching on personal experiences, the #MeToo movement, and the cultural issues surrounding figures (like Andrew Tate). We discuss the importance of education about consent, recognizing men's vulnerabilities, and creating safe spaces for emotional expression. Stressing the significance of empathy, open communication, and equal partnerships in relationships, highlighting the challenges of traditional roles like 'head of the household.' Through personal anecdotes, we advocate for a balance between vulnerability and compassion, urging for genuine human connections as the key to thriving relationships and social progress. The episode wraps up with insights on maintaining harmony amidst life's challenges and cautions against resorting to negative outlets.
00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:51 Discussing the Patriarchy
01:54 Personal Experiences and Reflections
06:22 Raising Awareness on Consent
09:47 Body Count and Relationship Dynamics
17:53 Men's Vulnerability and Emotional Health
39:34 Creating Safe Spaces for Men
43:31 Choosing the Right Therapist
44:20 Navigating Feelings for Your Therapist
45:34 Intimacy Without Romance
46:41 Men and Emotional Connection
48:18 Exploring Love Languages
49:49 The Myth of 'Happy Wife, Happy Life'
52:26 The Role of Vulnerability in Relationships
55:24 Challenges in Couples Therapy
58:32 Integrating Religion in Relationships
01:02:26 Balancing Power Dynamics
01:09:30 Teamwork in Relationships
01:15:45 Final Thoughts on Empathy and Kindness
Brent’s TikTok: @expatriarch
Brent’s Instagram: @ex.patriarch
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*This is not a substitute for therapy nor is it therapeutic advice. If you would like to find a therapist in your area check out psychologytoday.com, goodtherapy.org, or therapyden.com
Welcome to the Therapy Alchemist podcast. I'm your host, Katrina Austin, a licensed therapist. I'm here to talk not only about the science behind mental health, but the magical process of transformation.
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:Oh! Oh, you got so serious all of a sudden.
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:I mean, I
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:You're like, it's recording.
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:if we want to talk about, yeah, I was like, you know, we can, we can do the trash thing, the trash panda thing. We'll do that. I'm fine with
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:So anyways, everyone, there's this guy I found on the internet and his name is Brent McLary. Is that, did I pronounce that right? your name. Anyway. So he runs the account called ex patriarch and I ran across several of his videos and I was like, you're amazing. I'm going to reach out to him and ask if he'll be on my podcast. And he said, yes. So here we are. And I'm really excited. We're going to talk about the patriarchy today. And I'm a little nervous because I'm worried that it's going to offend a lot of people and because I feel like I know a lot of people who, men and women, who don't believe that the patriarchy is real. And so, um, I just want to like preface this for everyone who's watching that or listening, I guess as well. Um, that we are not here to bash men. I love men. Brent is a man, right? You identify as a man. You're a he him. Okay. See, so we, we love men and There are some improvements that could be made a little polishing around the edges in today's society. Um, so, um, I guess I want to talk about maybe, can you tell everyone just a little bit about like what areas that you notice in today's society where it's just really prominent that, um, the patriarchy is really showing up.
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:everywhere right now. Um, I think it's, um, for me, like, the big eye opening, uh, change for me was, was the me to movement, right? Was when women started coming forward, talking about their experiences with men and almost. Every single woman that I worked with, every single woman that I knew had a story of being harassed, assaulted, uh, being made to feel unsafe or uncomfortable by men in their lives. Um, and it wasn't just 1 or 2. It was every single woman, and I think that really opened my eyes a lot to how much I wasn't aware of this. Um, And how much I wasn't aware of how much I contributed to it. Um, you know, I've been there and there's such a social situation where you have the awkward guy who makes the jokes that are off color. And you're like, dude, but like, you just smile and laugh through it. And for me, it was seeing that and seeing how those experiences are pretty much universal for women. That really made me question, you know, how much am I. In my daily life, supporting it, not calling it out, not telling other men in my life that I'm around, but like, Hey, knock that off. That's not cool. That's very disrespectful. Um, and, and, and really the other part of it is, is raising a son. You know, I have a teenage son and so he comes to me with a lot of what is going on at school. Right. And it's a lot of, a lot of fights. Um, and, but it's also a lot of like, He's starting to come into his identity as a teenager, learning his place as, as a young man and his relationship to, to women. And a lot of like the stuff that, you know, uh, teenagers in high school see is very disrespectful and misogynistic. You think about like, whatever podcast, Andrew Tate, you know, it's very attractive and alluring to young men to see men who have, you know, a lot of money, a lot of wealth, who are, you know, You know, famous who have these really cool podcasts, especially when you look at, like, uh, say fresh and fit, you know, you have these 2 guys and they're surrounded always by these beautiful, attractive young women. Um, it's a very appealing kind of lifestyle and platform for young men, but they say the most disgusting misogynistic things and then. You know, these young men then turn around and be like, I don't know why it is that all the women in my life seem to think I'm a red flag and I'm a danger. What's going on here? And so, for me, it was a lot of wanting to really kind of step up and be a voice to kind of counteract some of that, especially with my son, you know, to talk to him about, you And have these conversations of like, look, you see this going on, but what do you think is the end result? What do you think are the consequences of you behaving in this manner? If you're treating women in this way, what do you think is the, is the outcome? And just really wanting to be a voice in kind of offering a different path, a SANA path.
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:Yeah, that's incredible. I'm so grateful to you for doing that. And I'm sure that he's going to be as well and all the women that he encounters, because I, the question that you asked of like, how do you think that this is going to impact women? Like, I have never even thought that question whenever I listened to guys saying like, really, you know, sexist things and stuff like it's, it's, it's amazing to me how. The patriarchy also influences like my views of things as well. And so like, I don't think a lot of people think about that. Cause it's like, Oh, it's just a joke or, you know, we're just, and I think that there can be like dark humor. Like I love dark humor, you know, I'm a huge fan of Ricky Derbez. So like, I love it. Like it has its place, but also it gets scary when people start to believe it. Cause when you say it so much, I mean, it's, there is a hierarchy among men and women, and I feel like I've even. And this may not be true. I want, honestly, you guys leave a comment if you are a lesbian and you don't experience this, but I feel like I've talked to several lesbians and like bisexual women who also feel that innate need for men to choose them. So like, I think it's just so ingrained in all of us and we just don't see it. It's just. And that's probably why people say that that's, that's not out there, you know, but there was a comment and I actually, I don't know if you got a chance to look at it, but there was a comment on this one post that I watched the other day. And the person said, everyone knows someone who's been raped, but no one knows a rapist. I was like, so there's just one dude running around out there, you know, attacking all the women. No, no, this is more. So anyways,
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:And I think, you know, this is another big area, right. Of just having that education on consent, um, because. You know, I've, I've seen this a couple of times where in conversations with men talking about, you know, Oh, nobody seems to know any of the men that do this, where, you know, a guy had a friend who was accused of it and all this kind of stuff. And his excuses was, well, you know, like she, she claimed she was right, but she was just drunk and it's like, yeah. Okay. So that right there is the problem. Right. And understanding what, you know, enthusiastic consent really means and educating on that. And it's really, really important, not just because. It's, you know, a horrific epidemic that we have right now of men's violence against women, right? It's not just the incredibly high rates of violence that is inflicted and of sexual assault, which is almost always perpetrated by men. I think, you know, I was looking today, even like, uh, of unreported, because this is the thing that always comes back. It's like, well, men don't report. But yeah, even when we look at unreported sexual assault or sexual violence, men are the perpetrators like, uh, 70 percent of the time. So it's, it's a huge problem that is, is balanced on one side. But the issue is when men don't understand consent, not only are they a threat to women, not only are they a danger in the way that they can take advantage of somebody like that, whether, you know, inebriated or not freely able to give consent, it also then twists our understanding of consent. And one of the things that came out of us, like, um, uh, the, the me too conversations is, you know, my gosh, you know, all of these women are talking to me who, who have had their consent violated, who've been assaulted by men in some way. I'm so glad that hasn't happened to me. And then I sat down and started to think about it, and I thought about a time where I was peer pressured into. Having sex with somebody that I didn't want to do, but I did so because there were people around me basically saying, you know, like, you're a chicken, you're a coward, you're gay, uh, if you don't, because it's being freely offered to you. And if you turn it down, then clearly, you know, you don't like women. And I went into that and it was, it was again, like another revelation to me of like, Oh, it turns out that like, Yeah, I have experienced that. Now, I'm not trying to compare those stories, right? The difference there between, you know, coercion and being violently assaulted, huge different scales, right? And we're not showing this to the competition, but it shows just how men's own understanding of consent can be really twisted, um, to where they don't often realize they're, they're being victimized. Um, you know, one of the other things is whenever we see these, these stories coming out of, we have recently, you know, of teachers who have assaulted and abused They're students. Almost always when the teacher is a woman who has been abusing a male student, the comment sections from other men is like, where were these teachers when I was in school? He's so lucky. Why is everybody snitching all this horrific stuff? Because we don't teach that men can have their consent violated. Um, so like I say, it makes them not only a danger to women, but it also makes them more prone to be victims because we just, Don't bother to educate on it because if we educated on it, we'd have to really deal with and tackle the problem of men Violating others consent when we do that. We also protect men from being victimized.
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:yeah, that's, it's interesting that you say that too, because, um, I've had that conversation with several of my guy friends when I've talked about consent. Cause I'm like, have you ever had a girl just like grope you? And they're like, yeah. And I'm like, you know, that's not cool. Right. And I wonder, um, how much of it is, um, Also tied into like the body count, quote unquote. And for those of you who don't know what the young kids are calling it, this is how many partners you've had, um, sexual partners you've had. Cause body count is not how many people you've killed apparently anymore. So, um, but I, to me, like, whenever I hear that, I think about that, like how it's all just like tied in for men where, um, I actually went on a date with a guy who was. Just so kind and great, but we got into a heated discussion about body count and how he was like, for women, they cannot have a high body count. And I was like, why, what is the point of that? That doesn't make any sense to use it. Cause it's easier for women. And so whenever you were telling me that story of like, well, yeah, you're, you know, guys will come in the comments and be like, where were these teachers? Whenever I was at age, there's like this scarcity mindset with men that like. You don't have access to sex. Um, and I'm not saying, I don't know if it's true or not. I have no idea if men have it harder than women. Um, probably when it comes to like finding sexual partners, but like, I guess, I don't know. I am kind of curious what your thoughts are on the whole concept of body
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:Oh Yeah, um, so, you know, I I talked about this recently, you know That scarcity mindset that you were talking about and had somebody in my comments say something that really just you know Probably because I was talking about how men often don't have standards When, and they do so because they want to cast like a broad, widest net possible because of like, you're talking about that scarcity mindset. And somebody had said men having standards is like damming a dry river. And I was like, but the problem is, is it then it then makes you incompatible when you're throwing that wide net and you're throwing yourself at everybody. And that's what, you know, yeah. Masculine culture kind of, uh, encourages you to do, you know, that, you know, there's, there's a disgusting phrase that men often use. Any hole is a goal. It really reiterates that, that mentality of, you know, the same experience that I went through. Like, why would you, if sex is freely given from any woman, why would you refuse? It's never about emotional connection, but what does that do, right? Like, it reinforces this isolation that men have, that they, You know, are in these romantic partnerships, a holy for sex, the emotional connection doesn't matter, which is the key component that is driving the frustration, the anger, the resentment, the isolation, the loneliness of these men, right? So it's all reinforcing that cycle. But then when we come to body count, um, it really just. You know, is another way to shame women and I've again talked about this in the video is, you know, the, the, the idea that men say, Oh, well, you know, it's, it's easier for women, maybe, right? Like, um, you know, it's definitely a case of like, you know, dating apps. Women get a lot more messaging. Why? Because of men's lack of selectiveness and just messaging everybody. Um, it is, it's harder to get those matches, but, um, Yeah. Yeah. Let's say, you know, a woman has a body count of whatever it is. Are you saying that she has not had good, decent quality men who she thought were a good compatible man? She was thought she were fit to spend time with and, you know, have a relationship with. And then I go, no, no, they're, they're, you know, they're not. And you're saying, oh, so there aren't good men out there. And then they flip around. They're like, oh, no, there's plenty of good men. Well, if there's plenty of good men. Then it shouldn't be surprising that, you know, when you meet a woman, she has probably had relationships with other good men that didn't work out. But again, the, the anger is all directed, not necessarily women believing there are other good men out there. It's directed at you don't think I'm a good man to be worth sleeping with. And a lot of that body count discussion is, is really about wanting to shame women into, um, You know, having that lower self esteem so that they don't reject the person that's in front of them, that the person in front of them is considered an option, but I mean, it's not one that makes a lot of sense to me because like you said, you know, if you want to say that, oh, you know, if a woman sleeps with, you know, 10 people or whatever, then, uh, you know, but Yeah, the rhetoric from the red pill is that she's dried up or used up or, you know, they, they have, uh, another phrase that I saw on a video of a woman on Tik Tok who had said that, you know, she slept with a large number of partners and it was consistently the comment was a, you know, hotdog down a hallway, which is like, first off, it's a complete misunderstanding of how women's bodies work. And the other answer is, is that if you're saying that sex, say a hundred times causes this, when you marry a woman, like how often are you going to be wanting sex? If you're going to be with a woman for 10 years, right. Does that mean you only want to have sex 10 times a year because otherwise, you know, you're going to, you're going to ruin her elasticity. You know, she's not gonna be any good for you. It's like, they don't think it through, right? They want a relationship with a partner who they want sex with. You know, I think most men would say like, you know, once a day or multiple times a day. Okay. Well, if you're in a 10 year relationship, you know, you're looking at like 1000 times, um, So then there's no difference between sleeping with one man a thousand time or sleeping with a thousand men one time. But, um, again, it's all coming from this mindset of, we want to shame women into adopting these behaviors and for rejecting us when the real root cause is that men don't value the emotional connection, which would, you know, unlock everything that they are, they're really seeking and missing out on.
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:Yeah. I've said the same thing about the hallway situation where I'm like, that doesn't make any, it doesn't make sense. I mean, we were, we have, we push full blown babies out and it comes back
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:Yeah, no,
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:me, you are not the size of a baby. So like, calm down. You know what I mean? Like, come on you guys. Um, but yeah, it's, I wonder, like, I should keep my desk, um, I wonder. You know, what's going to happen as society goes on, because this is talked about more and more. And I'm finding that a lot of my single female friends are, and I'm seeing it on Tik TOK. So I don't, you know, Tik TOK isn't the end all, but I'm seeing it just a lot, like on the end, on the internet, the women are just like now being more celibate and even bumble. Um, I don't know if you ever saw their ad that they did. And I just like have boycotted Bumble, um, I don't know if I've talked about it on here, but basically what their ad said was celibacy is not the answer. Like, you know, for sure, celibacy is not the answer. Like, Hey, come sleep with our guys on Bumble. And I'm just like, What? Like, and then there's also that misconception that women don't want sex as much as men. And I, I have never, ever, ever found that to be true. In fact, some, I, I've had clients come to me and they're like, I want sex more than my partner does. Like he doesn't want as much as I do, you know? And they're like coming and talking to me about that and stuff. And so it's just, I wonder, I wonder how much of it has to do with, What you said about the individual feeling rejected and like, maybe if she doesn't have as many partners, then I don't have to worry about letting her down because one of the things that I've noticed about men, and I don't know if you've ever read the book, No More Mr. Nice Guy by Dr. Robert Glover. Oh, it's so good. You've got to be so good. Um, um, but he talks about how like men have been, we've been, they've been raised by women, right? Like the first person really that they spend a lot of time with typically is their mom. They go to school and women are typically teachers. And so they've grown up with this idea that they have to make women happy and they have to please women. So guys have this really like deep unconscious need to not let women down. And so that's how the nice guy develops. You know, everybody knows the nice guys, like not actually a nice guy. He doesn't get the girls. He doesn't get the sex life. He wants, he doesn't get the relationship. He wants. And that whole book talks about why. And. It's just, it's interesting. Cause it has a lot to do with like that insecurity. And so I don't know if you're finding that too, like if maybe the underlying thing is like also insecurity or is it inferiority like feeling or not inferiority, sorry, superiority, like feeling superior to women, or is it a mix of both? Like, what do you think?
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:Oh, so yeah. Um, no, I think it, I think it is, uh, uh, like at its root cause underneath it all. I do think it is an incredibly low. Self esteem and insecurity is the place to where all of this comes from, um, you know, uh, YouTube mentioned to me, Brenny Brown, uh, and so I have done some reading, um, but Brenny Brown talks about this, right? Like, uh, how, you know, shame is used as a box to control both men and women to trap them inside a box with a lot of rules. And, uh, she kind of talks about with men, there's kind of this added thing of 1 of the main rules is don't be seen as weak. Do not be perceived as weak. It is the worst thing that you can be be seen as, um, you'll hear a lot. Whenever we talk about men need to be more emotionally vulnerable. They'll say, well, when I do that, it's weaponized and used against me. It's that fear of if I'm vulnerable, you're vulnerable. It is a weakness, right? I'm showing my weakness. I'm rolling over and showing my belly. And Brene says there's this other component, and because of that, you can't be weak. You also have to be great and powerful. So it's very much like the Wizard of Oz, where, you know, there's this great projection with fire and flames and threats and, you know, aggression and, oh, I am the great and powerful Oz. But the reality is there is a, you know, a timid man hiding in a closet. Behind it all with the curtain pull truck, and it's not just men who are closing that curtain. Brené also talks about how, you know, women can also be complicit in it of, you know, the wives, spouses, partners, girlfriends, mothers of those men are also there, you know, holding that curtain shut because they don't want anybody else peeking inside, um, to see that, you know, this man is actually a facade, but also to not let him leave. Right to not let him escape that box. Um, and I think, you know, at the root cause of it, most of it is this, this giant performance to display, um, strength when there's actually a weakness and a tenderness and a vulnerability and, you know, a fear and shame and guilt and scaredness that the, all of these emotions that men have that we just. We aren't really allowed to feel right. It's not publicly acceptable for us to, to, to display those emotions. And so, yeah, I think really where we need to come to is just having more men who are open about it, who can show those emotions and show that you can be vulnerable. You can talk about really painful, hurtful experiences that have gone in your life and find support. Yeah,
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:I love one of the things that Renee said, um, when she, I think I told you this when we had our phone call about this. Where she was talking about shame and she had only researched women and shame and women and a guy came up to her afterwards and he was like, you know, how convenient for you? And she was like, Oh, tell me more, you know, and her feelings were all hurt. Um, and he was like, you know, my, my wife and my daughter, they would rather see me fall off my horse, or they would rather see me die than to fall off my horse. And. It's so true as women. I think for me personally, I don't know how other women feel, but I, and maybe it's something I've been taught or maybe it's just, I don't know how I viewed men, but whenever the men in my life get scared, it makes me feel more fearful. And so, um, I was raised in a really religious, very, um, traditional household, I guess. And so, Men are supposed to be the head of the household and they're the protectors. And I love that. I love men and their masculine energy. Um, and so I think what I found is that with my clients, like, especially like I've had a couple of them come to me and say like my, I was telling my wife, like she wanted to hear about my feelings, so I started telling her and she was like, Whoa, you need help. And sent him to me to therapy, you know? Cause like she couldn't handle. His, his fears and his pain, because that made her feel unsettled as well. Um, so I, what do you think that women like we, as women, like me, especially, you know, who's out there working with men, like, what can we do to help? How can we help men feel more safe?
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:I think that is a huge topic, right? I think it's, it's a big thing. And I think I would, before we get into it, like, just offer some caution that this is a delicate topic, because I think, you know, the 1st part of like, you know, What can women do to help? There is a sense often in minority movements that they need to be intersectional. So, you know, feminism needs to include men. It can't leave men behind. The men's movement specifically turns around and says, well, we don't include women because we're about men. Like, why should we care about what's going on with women? So there's always the sense that like the minority group or the oppressive or the oppressed group has to be more intersectional and has to include it. And so I think we need to be careful about like, When we say, how can women help of understanding that not putting a ton of like the emotional labor and burden on, onto women. Um, and also just understanding it from, uh, you know, a restorative justice sense that you are oftentimes looking at somebody who has been victimized and abused by men throughout their life, asking them to display empathy and work for the betterment of people that they see, you know, as, as the abuser is the oppressor, you know, and so just keeping that in mind, and it's the same for men. Right. There are also men who have had gone through experiences with women, you know, they had maybe an abusive mother or an abusive partner. And so, you know, saying to them like, Hey, you need to get on board with the feminism train. Probably not helpful. They may not be in that place. They may not be ready to forgive. And it may not be something they are ever You know, capable of doing no, should they need to, um, saying all of that, though, how can women help? I think, you know, we talk about, like, at the root call, like, we talked about is that insecurity is that feeling of, of, um, lack of self esteem, that isolation and the lack of emotional connection. So, I think it's really about helping to build that. If you have the ability and the strength and the willingness and the empathy to do it, then I think it is, you know, listening to men. And hearing their story and validating them and letting them find a space where they can be vulnerable about their pain, but without, you know, the, you know, encouraging the hateful part of that rhetoric, you know, finding commonality of like, that sounds like a terrible experience. I can understand, you know, I've been through similar experiences of like that and validating their humanity. Because I think that the root cause, root of what is the cause of all of this with masculinity is a lot of men's humanity is denied, um, and pulled away. Uh, and I think that would really help with, you know, the, the feelings of being worthless, being ignored, being disposed. Bosable that men really, really feel. Um, but I'd also say like, you know, understand that you can't reach everybody. Right. Um, and I think, you know, this, you know, from, from your experience as a therapist, you can't help somebody who's not willing to be part of the journey. You can't drag them along. They have to be a participant in it. And so understanding that, you know, you can, you can be empathetic, you can call out misinformation, you can help correct them on some of their details, but it might not be enough. They may still be in a place where they're. psychological pain, their emotional hurt is too much, overwhelming, and they're not going to be able to reach it. Uh, it's just about. Um, you know, okay, if they're not ready, just keep treating them with kindness, compassion and leave the door open. If you're capable of that, like I said, you know, there's also plenty of people who are are done, you know, plenty of men who are done with women and plenty of women who are done with men and to protect their own safety and psychological safety. Um, that's not something they're able or are willing to do. And we should also just respect that those are boundaries that some people need to put in place.
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:Yeah, I love that. You clarified all of that because, um, I find myself waffling between two different things. I. I love men. I work with men. I have a lot of guy friends. I have a brother, you know, I've got nephews and, um, simultaneously I also have a lot of anger and a lot of fear around men because of what men have done to me because of being groomed because of being sexually assaulted. And so, um, and a lot of it in my healing journey really coming to light for me and especially recently. And so I think that that. Has played a big part for me personally, where I waffle back and forth. Cause I'm sure that my clients see this, you know, um, where I come into session with my guys and I'm like, I have all the empathy in the world. Cause I, I, I know my clients, you know, really well. And I know they're good men. And then I'll go on TikTok and I'll complain about men, you know, and they're probably like, this is so confusing. And it is because, um, like you said, the oppressed. We also don't have to have empathy for the oppressor, you know, I think that if you can reach a certain level of heal, then the black and white thinking goes away, you know, I find that like, if you get into very black and white thinking, that's whenever you're like, really in your trauma and really in your ego and stuff, um, it's to keep you safe. So, um, but I saw a post by, um, Some psychologist, I think, and she said that they did a study where men were like, I guess the study came to show that like men said that if women had more empathy for them and the amount of sexism that they experienced, then they would be more likely to side with the feminist movement. And I see it from a human perspective. I do because I understand seek first to understand than to be understood, right? Like we have an innate desire to really be seen, heard, and understood. And I was the first commenter, by the way, I, I was quick. I was,
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:You get the, you get the little, little thing come up and tell you
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:like the first freaking commenter. And I was like, this is ridiculous. I should not have to give empathy. Like people should just know between good and bad and like, look, uh, no, you should just side with women because that's the right thing to do because they don't, women don't deserve this. They are victims. Why do we have to have empathy for you first for you to have empathy for us? That's pretty effed up. And. The comments were not in agreement with me. And a lot of, a lot of dudes getting on there and being like, this is the problem that we have, look at this comment. And I'm like, no, like you guys aren't, you're not listening. You're not hearing, you know, like, and I tried to compare it to racism because for whatever reason, people think that racism and sexism is, are so vastly different. And I'm like, but it's, it's not at all. Um, women have, we, I mean, gosh, I've seen so many things recently about like women, like we weren't even allowed in America to get. It's a weird contradiction, um, that I face and I'm having to like figure out how to approach this online and with my clients and in my personal life. Like how do I balance, you know, empathy with holding firm on standing up for what is right and what is good. And also allowing space for the real anger that I experienced as well, because of what's happened to me. Um, it's such a, it's such a tricky road. So I think for the, Oh, go ahead.
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:but this is, you know, part of your journey, right? Like, this is part of like, your, your journey and your healing has to be finding what that is, right? Nobody else can, can tell you, oh, you're leaning too much on one side or the other, right?
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:Exactly. It's just where you're at. That's what my therapist has told me in the past. He's like, well, you're just, you're mad at men today, you know? And I'm like, by the way, I'm not going to, I was like, I'm going to offend you today. He's like, it's okay. I am. I'm going to offend you. And he's just really great about it. So.
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:And I love that you said that, though, because that really breaks down the complexity, right? Because a lot of like this, this rejection for men is that, you know, women, it's all, you know, feminism is all man hating. It's all women who just want to hate, hate, hate men. And yet, you know, like, you talk about your own experience, you're somebody who's been through these horrific events with men. You have a lot of reason to not. Trust men to not feel safe with men. And yet, you know, you are working in your career as, as one of many women who are therapists and deal with, you know, male clients working to for the betterment of men, there's, there's a real sense inside you that you want to champion men to work through their issues to help them be better. And I think that's also the same for a lot of women, even if they're feminist, that they, you know, as much as they might go say, Hey, I'm frustrated. I'm mad at men today. There is a sense for a lot of, especially, you know, women who are. Heterosexual and looking for romantic partners who were men of wanting a different reality of wanting men of really giving them a chance, giving them the benefit of doubt of wanting to strive and find good men out there and help them to be their better selves. That kind of gets ignored. You know, you talked about, um. Brene Brown, right? A credible author who has, you know, talked about men and championed men's issues. A lot of what we talked about there, that masculinity and how shame relates to men to really help them out, to help them understand what's going on to do with their betterment. Uh, you know, there's also bell hooks and other authors. There's a lot of these really strong feminist women who advocate and champion for men. Who really want to see their betterment. Um, and I think that gets, you know, ignored because the nuance goes out of it. It's just, I want to believe that these women hate men because you're being critical of men. You hate all men. And it's not like if, if we didn't care, right, if there was nothing but apathy, there would be silence. The reason why there's so much of this desire and encouragement to be critical of men and masculinity is because there's a desire underneath it to improve things, to make things better, to find better quality partners and to be happier in those relationships, but also just to help men to see the pain that they are in and how, you know, they are feeling the isolation, that loneliness that they are feeling like they don't have that emotional connection through life and saying, look, We want to give you what we have and help you out of that. Um, and I wish there was more room for that nuance and understanding rather than simply you either like men or you hate men. It could be like you talked about today. I hate men tomorrow. I met a really great man and I'm, I'm really happy. And like, you know, I love men today.
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:And I, I wonder how much hatred actually comes from a place of fear. You know, for me, it's definitely a protective thing, you know, cause I'm like, if I can hate, then I can feel safe because I can keep you far away. I can feel superior to you. And there's a lot of empowerment and anger. And so I would even question like how many women hate, like, who are actually just want men to be good. They want men to be safe again, like what we were told when we were little. And same in reverse for men, because I've known a lot of men who also have a lot of hatred towards women. And maybe they just want my women to be safer because as I've seen, um, on some of the comments on some of my posts, like a lot of men talk about women, like lashing out at them and, and being very emotionally dysregulated. And I have like several thoughts on that, on why women are. Um, but also like, I get it, you know, if you want somebody to be vulnerable with you, you also have to be a safe place for them to be vulnerable. And I think people forget that that is true, you know? So it's, it's such a touchy subject, um, but so important because We're, there's only, you know, just us humans, we don't have a new species of humans coming along. You know what I mean? Like we, we have to learn to get along with each other. My gosh,
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:Yeah, I think that's, that's ultimately what human connection is about. I think, you know, I love what you said there about like you, you have to provide a space that is safe for people to be vulnerable. If you want them to be vulnerable. Um, you know, I learned this when, you know, I talked about I have a son, but. We lost two pregnancies before that. It was devastating. It was devastating. Um, and it was something where when he was growing up, we'd have random strangers come up to us and be like, Oh, you know, time for another one. You're ready for ready for a little girl. And that was deeply distressing. So I got to the point where I would just say to people, like, No, he's our miracle child. We lost to pregnancy before. And you would see the mood completely shift from this kind of like, Oh, you know, you're getting it. And then, oh, I'm very sorry. And there would be this instant moment of connection. I, I, I, one of the conversations was, um, a mother with her two adult daughters. And when I said that, she turned around and she was like, Oh, I, I, I lost a pregnancy as well between, between the two girls and the two adult women that she was with turned and looked her in shock because she had never spoken it to him. Her, their own mother had kept this from them, but she had just, Shared it with a complete stranger because it was that moment of vulnerability because I had shared about this and gave her a space where these conversations that we don't have. We don't talk about things like ectopic pregnancies and miscarriage and the loss of pregnancy because they're these incredible painful things. You know, how are you doing doing? Great. Fine. Live in the dream. Like, we gloss over it because we don't. We don't really have the time to invest a deep emotional connection yet. Brief encounter with a stranger and we got a personal story from her that she'd never shared with her family. And I think it's so important that for men and women, there's more of that vulnerability, right? It's very easy for us to drive by, you know, on the internet, on social media and leave a comment that you are, you know, a basement dwelling loser. You're a cat lady who will die alone and be hateful and horrible. Um, it is more. Useful and more helpful as a society if, you know, we are instead able to show more vulnerability and connection and, you know, really be open about the pain that we're going through, because I think it does give space for other people to then share the pain that they're going through.
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:Yeah. And gosh, what a beautiful story to hear. I love that you were able to like challenge what people are saying by just being honest about things because it's, it, that's what connects us in a lot of ways is the, the hard things that we've been through. And so, you know, maybe. When it comes to this approach, we should all speak from a place of like what I, as an individual have experienced because it's, I think what happens is we end up getting like really defensive on either side, you know, where it's like, no, you know, because people are attacking an entire sex or whatever, you know, half the population and, um, But coming from a place of like, well, here's my experience, you know, and here's my experience, even with you, you know, like, and like explaining it to your friends that way, you know, cause I have a lot of male friends and, you know, I've tried to explain things, you know, and sometimes it goes right, right over their heads and other times it lands well, you know, so it just, it just depends. Um, but they also have had emotional conversations with me about their experiences with women. And so I'm like, man, you know, I've had to do a lot of self reflection on that, thankfully, because. I have a lot of really great guys in my life who are really honest with me about sometimes it's hard to hear, um, but shout out to, to my friends and guys I've dated, um, you know, for telling me how it is. So,
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:You handed them a feedback form. Can you like, you know, right when I have one to five, but it's really helpful because I think at the base of that isolation and loneliness and that lack of self esteem and that feeling of rejection, right? Is fundamentally this sense of something's broken in me, especially when we talk about things like that, like, like losing pregnancies or the things we go through, you know, Uh, suicidal ideation, depression, we come at it from this point of, I am internally broken. There's something different and wrong with me. And by sharing those stories and showing just how universal some of those experiences are of, Hey, you know, I've been through depression. Uh, Hey, look, I've been there at the bottom where I just, I just wanted it all to stop. Right. The only thing keeping me together, uh, was just the idea that maybe I could just end all of the pain. Right. These are very helpful experiences to share, because they show that we are not alone, that the human experience is universal. Um, you know, that you are not an island that is forgotten about, rejected, discarded, that there are these moments of connection that you can have with other people to help them validate your experience, but you validate theirs as well and show that. You're not broken that you are not alone, that you are not, you know, yes, you are unique, but you are not, um, different in that sense of there's something broken and wrong internally in you that, you know, reality is you're a human is living in this world that is violent and painful. And often indifferent and uncaring to what you're going through, but that that is an experience that both men and women share and face with. And yes, there are certain advantages and disadvantages that go with that, right? There are certain places where you might see your position elevated. There are advantages that you might see or unsee, uh, hidden advantages that you get as you go through life. And yes, it's important to recognize those, but fundamentally underneath it all, it is a shared human experience. And through sharing that connection and empathy, we can. Relate and find less of the brokenness within us and instead see the wholeness and connecting to other people.
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:do you have any guidance for men on where they could go to find that? Because I think there's still a lot of spaces where, um, you know, guys would like, Oh, I'll suck it up, you know, cause it just, it does happen. And so I wonder for the guys listening, like, and they're like, okay, yeah. So I can be vulnerable. I can talk about my feelings, but to who, you know, like, do you have any guidance on that?
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:I think it's hard because there's not a lot of like great spaces for it, right? And I think the ones that I can like full throated wholeheartedly endorse are few and far between. Um, you know, there are initiatives like I think the mankind initiative where, you know, there are some elements that I struggle with, but I think it overall, its goal of trying to connect men and reach out to men, I think is is good. And I definitely some help there. I think, you know, my first and top. You know, recommendation would be to talk to a therapist like yourself, you know, to find a space where you can just even begin to have those conversations. Cause I think for a lot of men being vulnerable, touching into those emotions is often overwhelming. They don't know how to experience and regulate those emotions without reacting in, in very, um, physical ways. And I think it's really important that the first step is probably to just talk with a therapist to learn about how to access some of that pain and deal with it in a healthy way. And I think that's, that's really a tool that should be done in a therapeutic setting. I would not encourage that to just be going out and, you know, like talking to their wives about like the deep trauma that is, that is lurking within them. But when they're in a place where having picked up those tools, um, and those skills from therapists, where they're, You are able to talk about these deeply painful experiences without being overwhelmed by your emotions. Then. Yeah, I think, you know, there are a lot of support groups for going through these things. That could be really useful to provide context and to share that universal experience. And then I also think, you know, there's a lot of good books. People like I was talking about bell hooks, um, and brown, you know, can kind of help you with relating through that. Um, and then, you know, obviously there are people on social media who talk about these things as well that you can, you can find and and and go to, um, but, yeah, I think overall, though, I think that is probably 1 of the big things that is really missing is is a really good space for men to be to be vulnerable. You know, in a group setting, uh, I think, you know, uh, a good friend of mine that's on social media. Um, uh, Hey Johnny, I forget his at, I think his at, is that Hey Brother Johnny, but the Hey Brother Co CEO, they're, they're a group who talk openly and create workshops for men to be expressive and have space spaces, um, to be vulnerable and with each other, they do, I think, uh, a monthly call as well that you can be part of and jump on and share your experiences. So that's, that's another good resource. But like I said, they're. They're few and far between
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:Oh, I love that. I'm going to have to link that below so that people can find that because that's really cool. And gosh, I love what you said about finding a safe space to, To test it out in what I I've stolen this, um, this line from this. trainer of mine, Bruce Rumsey, who's incredible for everyone listening. Um, we all worship the ground he walks on anyways, but he says, uh, he says that he's like, you know, he calls therapy his flight simulator. He's like, we can't crash in here. And so, and I've used that with a lot of clients, like we can't crash in here. So you, you get mad at me. You can have whatever feelings you have towards me and cool, let's just work it out and let's practice in here. And, and I've even done it in couple's therapy as well. You know, like, we're like, I'm like, okay, you practice having this conversation with me. Cause I'll have real human feelings, um, towards my clients. You know, I'm, I'm a person, you know, I have, I have feelings and sometimes my clients will me off or I'll them off and we have to have a conversation about it, you know, and it's just such a fun. Playful thing for me. I love, I love talking about the therapeutic relationship with my clients. And so I love that you brought that up because, um, you know, even if men go to a female therapist on purpose. So that they can learn how to have conversations with women first, because maybe that's who they're more comfortable with and then eventually transfer to a male therapist. So then now you are having to talk with another man about your feelings, right? Um, I intentionally have a male therapist because I told him on day one, I was like, I need to have a healthy relationship with a guy who's not going to let me down. And he was like, Got it. You know, he's been freaking amazing. Um,
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:that's all
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:and so, um, cause I I know that I need to heal my relationship with a masculine. And so I'm like, I need a guarantee that somebody's not going to hurt me. And, um, I think that the therapeutic relationship is a great place to do that. I do want to put a caveat, not a caveat in here, but just like a little asterisk for guys listening, because I've encountered this several times. Um, If you do get a female therapist and this is your first time being vulnerable with someone, you are probably, if you're straight, if you're heterosexual, you will think that you're having feelings for her. And I just want you to know that there is a difference between, um, you can have attraction towards somebody, but intimacy doesn't always have to be a romantic feeling. And so I have a lot of clients who've encountered that. And. I had one client in particular who was so funny because his old therapist told him to call me and cause he was like going to quit, you know, cause we had a really intimate session where he revealed some things that he never told anyone. And, and so he was like, I was going to quit. So I called my old therapist and she was like, I think you need to call Katrina and tell her this. And I was like, shout out to that woman, you know? And he was like, well, he was like, well, you know, like, I just thought like maybe I had a crush on you or something. And so I couldn't come back. And I was like, no, cause you don't know me. Like it's a, this is a very one sided relationship. Like, you know, um, Parts of me, but you really don't know me, you know, you don't know what I'm like, you know, um, and so that may come up as well. And I've had guys kind of. You know, be fearful of that. And so if that is something that like you are concerned about, maybe start with a male therapist, um, or just bring it up with your female therapist to, you know, work through those things, but you can have intimacy without romance, which now I'm wondering, is that why guys avoid it with other men? Would that be a confusing thing?
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:was literally what was going to come out of my mouth. And I was like, it just, you know, it's another reminder of just, just how staff men are for, for that emotional connection, because that's obviously part of the reason why. But some men avoid that connection with men, right, is because it is seen as homosexual, but that you are attracted to men and you must be to have that shine of pair and bond. You know, a lot of men's reaction to seeing two men hugging each other is, is kind of disgust and uncomfortableness. And, and yeah, a father hugging his son is the most natural thing that we would never connect it to, but it, it changes the context because two grown men doing it. It sounds like, well, why would they be doing that? That the only reason is because they must be attracted to each other or one of them is attracted to and trying to hit on, but I think it's important that the men. Able build that resilience to split apart, um, intimacy from romantic attraction and be able to build intimacy in platonic relationships, platonic relationships with men, and then also platonic relationships with women eventually to build that because I think this is all connected to the same thing to come back to what you were talking about. You know, our conversation about sex, right? And, and the constant desire by men for pursuing relationships entirely for sex. There's often this idea that intimacy is only physical intimacy and it's only sex. And so those moments where, oh, you know, uh, I'm struggling because our sex drives are off. And like, you know, you know, my partner doesn't want sex as much as I do is an opportunity for you to explore intimacy, Without sex, right? What are the other things that we can do if my partner is not in a place or in a position or in the mood for wanting sexual intimacy? What are some other ways that we can build it? Uh, be together and find that emotional connection without it necessarily being being physical? Um, and all of that is tied onto the, you know, the same mess that that men have been raised to, to basically see Emotional connection, emotional intimacy is worthless. Not pursuing it with in a platonic setting, not seeing it in a romantic setting. The only thing is this kind of primal desire to have sex. That is the only thing that matters. And everything else is off the table. And you'll, I'm sure you've heard this in therapy for men who like, well, sex is how I build into emotional intimacy. Like, that's, that's the only thing that is new for me. And it's like, that may be what you've taught. And that may be what you've taught yourself, but Underneath it is a really vast, rich experience that you are missing out on.
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:What are your thoughts on the five love languages and touch being every single man's first love? I've never met a man. I'm just, I've never ever, and I've asked a lot of dudes and their first love languages touch. So what is your, what are your thoughts on that? I
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:is touch. Um, and I, I, I'm a cliche, I'm a walking cliche, but mine has always been not necessarily. Uh, sexual intimacy, in fact, sexual intimacy. I love sexual intimacy. It's fantastic. Um, you know, but I'm also, you know, uh, at a place where, like, I, I recognize and understand that social, sexual intimacy is actually 1 of the things that kind of drops off in a relationship as you can prioritize your life and go through it. It's important that you maintain it. Uh, and sometimes, unfortunately, that means in relationships scheduling it, which is not the sexiest thing ever, but it's important to make sure that that happens. But for me, like, I love. Physical touch so holding hands sitting next to each other on the couch, uh, you know, when we go to sleep at night, like, you know, just having a foot touching things like that. Right? Like are important because they help me to feel like my partner is present and I'm getting that emotional connection. But I agree. I think the. Most men answer that question with touch because they genuinely like, want to push that. Like, oh, I need I need physical touch. I have a video coming up about this because this is something that really sticks in my crawl because now you're going to get me on a rant
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:don't know.
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:is, is, is this idea that, you know, for a lot of times the relationship advice that is thrown out and I've seen so many countless videos. I'm going to put together a little montage of them of basically saying, like, to create a happy relationship, a belly full, balls happy. Right. That the only thing that men need is their bellies full and to have sexual intimacy and that emotional connection doesn't matter or anything else. And I, I hate it so much because it reinforces that same idea that the only thing that matters is sexual intimacy. Um, and, and it's, it's not, and again, I think even as men explore, like, those 5 love languages, I'm not going to get into the languages. We'll save that
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:There's no research behind them, by the way, everyone. They're helpful.
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:you got me. I think they're, I think, right. I think they're a useful tool if you are at that stage in your, in your, like, kind of understanding, right? If you are completely lost, things like Meta from Mars, Meta from Venus, the five love languages, they're helpful in giving you a framework. But frameworks are just a model. And that, you know, as you get deeper in your understanding, those frameworks should be more refined, more helpful and, you know, Accurate. That's the best way I can put it. But like, men love to spend quality time, right? Like a lot of them do. Um, it's really important for them to do that. Um, you know, and so, uh, there's also a lot of men who love gifts, who doesn't love gifts. Right. And I think again, it comes down to this really exploring what is often seen as feminine sides of their identity. That the, the only acceptable way to show love and to reciprocate love is, is sexual intimacy. And Gosh, you're missing out on so much more.
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:Yes. Oh my gosh. Yes. And then whenever you add in the other kinds of intimacy, then sex goes from like, To, you know, y'all can't see it. Who's listening on a podcast, but I went from like the ground to the ceiling, um, cause it changes everything. You know, it really does. When you have that kind of connection, it's not just this, it's not just like a physical act. I guess, um, it's becomes more spiritual
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:And if you've ever like kind of, you texted somebody throughout the day and, you know, wait till you get home and this is all the things like that kind of tension that gets built and the, uh, the release that comes with that, like, it's the same, like, it's that, like, that's the kind of thing you're, you're building, but more generally across your, your emotional connection and romantic relationship. And so, yeah, it's, uh, Because you're both like, again, comes back to what you said earlier, you're both creating a safe space for you to be vulnerable, right? Uh, and really just allow yourselves to be present and authentic and share your true selves. Uh, and so there's a much deeper connection there.
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:and vulnerability is probably a terrifying word for men. Um, Oh man, I wish I could read something that Bruce wrote once about how he, how he feels about men and, and couple therapy and like, he would probably get mad at me for reading it on here. Um, but I'll just say just kind of a preface from it that I just thought was really beautiful of like why he thinks that men avoid couple therapy and it kind of ties into like the vulnerability. And He, he was saying, like, I think that men have this unconscious fear that they're going to show up to couples therapy and they're just like, going to get their ass handed to them. And they're going to find out that they are the sole cause of their wife's unhappiness. You know, and so like, when you think about vulnerability, um, and some of the men that I've spoken with, like, they're fearful that when they expose it, everybody's going to see like, I'm actually really stupid. I'm actually really scared. I'm actually weak. I am all of these other things, but so is every other guy,
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:Right,
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:are just not talking about it. They all feel the same way. Um,
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:recently see a video from a woman who is a men's rights, you know, activist or whatever, basically saying that couples therapy, that's that's what it is. It's a multi level marketing scheme where the therapist sides with the woman to bash men. And that is all the couples therapy is. And I don't know if I'll talk about it because it makes me so angry. But like, But they, but that's what does that sense. Right. I've, and a lot of men kind of have this fear that being vulnerable means they're going to be harmed. Right. This comes back to the whole, like the, would you rather be with a man versus bear and men's answer to that was, would you rather talk to a woman, not to a tree? And everyone's like, I'd rather talk to a tree because of the tree's not going to weaponize it and hurt me against it. And it's like, but vulnerability has to come with. Vulnerability, right? Men want a space to be able to be vulnerable, but without the potential for harm to come to them. And unfortunately, real vulnerability means letting your guard down, means letting your walls come down. And unfortunately, it does come with. You know, that being abused, sometimes that being, you know, things you can't protect yourself from, from people hurting you. And we have this, this is why we get into relationships in the 1st place. Right? If you don't want your heart ever broken, don't ever get in a relationship. Don't fall in love. Don't ever bother. Just go be a hermit, live somewhere and you'll never have your heart broken. But we do it because the reward is worth the risk. Right? And I realize that for a lot of men, their experiences have made it to where they feel like the risk is too much. I've never seen the reward, but, you know, I think. Yeah. If you're, if you're able to find the place to be vulnerable. And like you said, maybe that is, is with a therapist, with the tree, with the training wheels on finding a space where you can, can learn to do it in a safe environment where you're not, um, that, you know, that reward is, is fantastic. And, you know, my experience with couples therapy has never been that, where, you know, it was like bashed on, it was always about, um, a different, for really having like an objective observer to referee. It's, it's always been about exploring why it is. The person feels that way. And do you understand why they feel that way? Can you see their thought patterns? It's always been about helping to bridge that level of understanding between you so that when there is a conflict, it's not about apportioning blame or saying that, you know, you behaved in this way or you did that. It's about understanding. Do you see how this behavior provokes this reaction in your partner? Do you see how your reaction provokes this behavior in your partner? What can you both do to be mindful of it? And other You know, differences in your thought pattern, differences in your behavior, differences in how you approach things that can protect their emotional and psychological safety, where you still feel you can get hurt, um, without it, then provoking these very defensive negative behaviors or, you know, in, in, in your partner. And it's like. It's, I wish more people understood that about like, about couples therapy,
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:and I will acknowledge too, for the people who, you know, like fear in couple therapy, I do think that there is an unfair, um, disadvantage for men because typically a lot of women in couple therapy have the language already. And so I think that it can feel like guys are being put on the hot seat. And I try to preface that whenever I'm doing that, like whoever's on the hot seat that day. I'm putting you on the hot seat. Like, I, I'm sorry, today's your, you, you did not win the lottery today, you know, um, and because like, you know, I think that it does, it is like having to kind of, um, add language to things that men normally don't have language for, um, and so I think it can feel very attacking and very triggering. And so, um, you know, finding a couple of therapists that you both click with really well, you know, and that you trust. Um, and going in knowing that like, this is, I'm going in here to improve myself, not to fix my partner. Cause you know, they're like fix my partner. Like clearly they suck, you know? And like, I'm sure women go into couples therapy being like, he's a nutcase. And he's, he's like, she's a nutcase. And then they, you know, but it is about just like, can you understand each other and can you learn how to listen? And like, that's, that's what it is. Cause 69 percent of the fights that you guys have, you are going to have for the rest of your relationship, according to the Gottman's research, 69%, you guys, that's a lot. You're never going to resolve it. You're going to fight about it forever.
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:Will you pick up your clothes? Will you take out the trash
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:Literally. Yes. So I'm going to go to my questions list here and see if there was some stuff that we didn't touch on, by the way, how much time do you have today?
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:as much time as you
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:because I want to see if maybe we can go another 30 minutes if we, unless we run out of stuff, if that's okay. Um, I wonder, so you told me, um, and I don't know if you want me to take this out or not, but you also mentioned that, um, that you are religious, right? That you are, you are a Christian. Um, and I think it would be important probably to bring up the topic of religion as well. Um,
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:Yeah. You're welcome to.
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:Cause I think that, um, well, I'll just, I'll just say, and who knows if this guy will actually listen to this podcast episode, but there was a guy on my Facebook whom I've never met in my life who posted, um, a thing about, you know, he put a lot of Bible quotes and, and just basically like saying that, you know, women, like if your husband is not showing up as a good husband, then you need to just be submissive. And then he will be a better husband. Oh, I was mad, mad. And, and so he was very kind, he was super kind and I was enraged and he private messaged me, you know, and it was asking me questions and stuff. And I, you know, was trying to explain what it's like to be a woman. Um, and you know, what was really unfortunate about this. this situation is that he's a black man. And so I was like, it is, you are literally missing exactly what you just told us, you know? And he even used the word slave as they do in the Bible. And he was like, not like how Westernized people understand. I was like, there's no other definition for a slave. I don't know how it's possible. I don't know how to say this, but nobody wants to be a slave. Um, and then ironically ended it with a conversation of him saying, so I can't take you on a date, right? And I was like, no, you won't like
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:I mean, hey, 10 out of 10 for, 10 out of 10
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:yeah. I'm flattered. I'm totally flattered. And you won't like me.
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:See, see, casting the widest, the widest possible net, widest possible net. It's a Facebook argument, but like, we can still go on a
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:by the way, Brent, I did use one of the things that you taught me on someone who messaged me and said, Ooh, redheads, you know, cause he was being real. Yeah, he was like, Ooh, redheads, you know, that's just my type. And I was like, what is your type? And he was like, well, you are. And I was like, Oh, so you've dated a bunch of redheads. And he was like, no. And I was like, Oh, so yeah. Yeah. I'm actually not your type at all. It was just opportunity based and he was like, well, yeah, the opportunity arises and I said, and I was like, yeah, well, good luck for you. I hope you find it.
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:I mean, look, hey, again, 10 out of 10 for the honesty there, right? Like, you know, like, yeah, no, it's, it's opportunity based. I mean, I think, um, what's it, uh, I think it was, uh, Isla, Isla Schlesinger. She has a whole bit where she talks about, you know, men realize that for them, the main, the main statistic is the number of times at bat to try and hit a home run. So for men, like, they don't deal with the rejection because they're just, just keep, just keep swinging the bat. One of these, one of these will land one day,
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:Ooh, which have you heard of? Sorry to get sidetracked, but have you heard of the, um, the YouTube guy who his name is Ho Math? He's,
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:yes,
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:I just, I love, I actually love his stuff because I'm like, Dang it! Some of this stuff is super accurate and it hurts my feelings, but you're right, sir. Anyways, sorry, you were saying something.
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:it's, it's, it's fine. I have, I have totally lost where that train, where that train was going. That train has left the station. It has gone in the distance and is, and is never coming back. I will, I will remember it like 20 seconds after we end this conversation.
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:just, and then you'll lose it again because you're going to get food and you're hungry, so, Um, so, religion. What do we, how do we integrate that? What about the people who are religious, right? Like how, how do you take out the patriarchy that it, it can be harmful and also maybe have a healthy hierarchy in your relationship? Because heck, maybe for some people it does work. I'm not here to say what does and doesn't.
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:Yeah. Um, and I think, I think that's the thing is right. Like, it's got to be, I think with all relationships, the key is communication and making sure you're on the same page. And it doesn't matter whether you're talking about like having an open relationship or polyamory or, you know, having that religious hierarchy in your relationship, whether you want to be a trad wife, whether you want to a more equitable partnership in terms of like the financial contributions and stuff like that. Yeah. Everything comes down to communication and making sure that you and your partner are on the same page and having those conversations. Uh, you know, I'm a big fan of 90 day. What can I say, right? Like I love really terrible reality TV. Uh, and there's an absolutely terrible person on there. Uh, but one of the conversations was that like, he was having to break to this person that he has traveled halfway across the world to go meet. Be with to see if they can have a relationship to potentially marry and go live in their country with them, right? You know, a huge step, huge undertaking. He has to break it to them that before he came out on that flight a week before he'd slept with somebody else. And now he has gonorrhea. Um, and he was like, I don't know if they know that I haven't been monogamous. And you're like, no, because you never had that conversation, right? That like, This, this idea of that, like, Oh, well, you know, I just, I didn't tell, no, you have to be open and communicate all of those things. And, and, and, you know, things like your religious views and what you have an expectation in the household of like your hierarchy there, there's, there's going to be some hierarchies in your relationship when it comes to spiders. I am at the top of the hierarchy for dealing with spiders in our house, right? Just not going to happen when it comes to dealing with salesmen at our front door. Uh, Megan. Megan is at the top of that hierarchy. I will, you know, I'm not dealing with them. I will ignore, I will close the curtains and hide. I don't want to talk to anybody. So hierarchies themselves aren't necessarily a problem as long as you're both on the same page of what the hierarchy is and where those responsibilities lie. And again, like, you know, if the problem with religion is it often becomes as yet another justification, the way that it has often been used is it has been weaponized throughout the centuries to cement. one person's position of authority and superiority over another against their consent, their will, and it's used to create abuse. And it doesn't matter whether you're using a political framework, a racial framework, um, whether you're doing it based off gender or, you know, sexual orientation, whatever you want to use to say, this is good, this is bad, and, and you need to deal with it. Like it always causes oppression, abuse, misery, and you don't want to be putting those things into your relationship.
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:I love that. Like to, to, um, talk about the communication of it too. Like, cause as you're saying that, you know, you, I think about like the abuse that can come from the power dynamics and it's like, are you asking your partner if you are the man, if you were the head of the household, are you asking your partner how she's feeling about you being the head of the household? Um, are you getting annual feedback at a minimum of how you're doing and how you're performing as the man of the household? You know, um, because like, if there is going to be a power dynamic, like the person, what was it, I feel like there was a quote that said something like whoever's, whoever has the most power has the most responsibility or something like that. And
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:Yeah.
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:and so if you, cause you are in charge of hurting your whole family, which. By the way, whoa, who wants that pressure? My goodness. Um, share it, share the wealth if you want, you know, so that it's more even because that's a lot, even just to put on a man's head to the, like, if you fail as a family, it's all your fault, you know, like, wow, okay. Um, but you know, if that's the way that you guys, you as a couple have decided you want to do a relationship. Um, I think you can do it in beautiful ways. And like, I liked what you said about like differentiating. You know, and making sure like, okay, that there is not oppression happening that maybe you might be unaware of because power is addictive in a way. And so, um,
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:Oh,
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:cause you know, we feel safe when we're powerful. I mean, that's just shit. It's so hard to find safety in life. So.
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:But I think it's also like understanding that there's seasons for everything. Right. And this comes back to the quote you talked before with Brené Brown talking to that man about like, Oh, you know, they, I need to be up on the halls. Cause I've seen, I've seen another, like, you know, men's podcast kind of coach talking about like, you know, uh, men don't need to be emotional. They don't need to come off the halls. They need to be up on the halls and the women need to be cheering us on the hall. And it's like, that might be fine, but there are going to be things that happen in your life that are. Devastating. You might lose a parent, uh, you know, and it is a huge hole. You might lose a child. You might lose your job, right? You might have some unforeseen hardships. You know, your, your car breaks down, you got to pay for it. There are certain things. And at some point, Everybody has a breaking point to what they can take on the emotional load that can be put on their shoulders. And I think putting men in a position where they are, you know, protector, provider, financial, I have to do all these things. I have to be on the horse. I have to lead the family. Great. If you want to do that, you cannot do that 24, for the rest of your life. There are going to be days where you have nothing in the tank where you are spent and empty, and you need to be able in your relationship to have a space where you're able to turn to your partner and say, uh, I don't have it in me today. I, I can't, I need some, I need you to help and pick up the slack. Um, and I think that's also, you know, when we look at, like, what a lot of women are struggling with in their relationships with men is that conversation of I'm doing so much of this load and this work. I need your help with this. Can you, you know, go into that? And men, you know, proactively saying, Hey, it looks like you've got a lot on. What can I do? Um, 1 of the things for me was, uh, yeah. My wife, Megan, constant clutter, right? I am, uh, disorganized. I think is the best way to put it. So, so when she lived in my house, it was very stressful for her because I had a very cluttered house. And so, like, I was like, okay, well, I'll give you an office where, like, you can have your own space. And it was very clean and everything, but it was just a small island. In a cluttered house, so it never felt like her own. So when we moved into our house together, the house is, you know, a decluttered zone a very nice. It looks like a show home. It doesn't look like anybody lives in this place. Uh, my room definitely looks lived in, but 1 of the things I know is that, like, when she doesn't have a lot when she is working, like, putting in extra hours or doesn't have a lot of space. I know that like, clutter is going to be something that annoys her and really just piles on that load. And so I will. Yeah. Look around and be mindful of it and clean. Not because I care. I don't care. Like, you know, like, um, I could deal with a lot more clutter, but I know that it's stressful, tired to picking up. And it's just really about that, that having that conversation, that mindset of what can I do to help share the load when, when, you know, my partner doesn't. And it's, it's helpful for men to be doing that. For their spouses, it's also helpful for, you know, their partners to be doing that for men too, because nobody, nobody can ride high every day for the rest of their life. There are days where you got nothing and you need to plan for that.
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:It's all about teamwork. I mean, it sounds like you and Megan do such a great job at doing teamwork and I freaking love that. And I'm sure you're not great at it and perfect at it every day because duh, no team is, you know what I mean? Like you guys are human beings.
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:Yeah, and there's a lot of conversations, right? But it's, it's, you know, there's definitely been challenges and struggles for it. No relationship, I think. Doesn't have them and doesn't have difficult conversations, but the way that we've got through it is by having those difficult conversations in a respectful manner of understanding that we're both coming from a place of I care and deeply love the other person and I want their best for them. But. I'm also at a place where you're pissing me off right now, where I'm disappointed in you, where you're not taking out the trash. And I've asked you 6 times, right? Like, there, there are those things that I'm like, we, we have to work through them and find a way to, like, alleviate some of those things. Um, and then being mindful and making sure that you're learning the lessons so that you're not continually having the same conversations every 6 months. Like you said, you know, like, the majority Arguments you have in your relationship are the same arguments. It's about making sure that, hey, there's progress being made, that you are more compatible and a better fit. And you're addressing those things because the less stress and more safe you feel at home and in your relationship, um, the more, you know, uh, emotional connection you're going to have in a relationship. If you're, if your home is a constant source of stress, and it doesn't matter whether it's, you know, a book. Stressing the relationship. It's the kids screaming. It's the fact that, you know, uh, there's always noise. There's all the stuff like that is going to cause problems. And it's going to make sure that you don't have the strength, the spoons for, uh, the emotional labor of life. And so it's about finding ways to do it. And it doesn't always work out. There are some days where both of you are on empty, right? And those are the difficult and hard conversations of what do we prioritize? Where can we find. What is what is immediate because, you know, I am more of a procrastinator again, you know, whereas my partner is, is very anxious. And so there are a lot of times where things that she might see as a priority. I don't. And so in those moments where we both have nothing, I can't reach out to me. Some of those needs, but they're in a really serious, important need for her because she's anxious and to will dwell and ruminate. And so we have to figure out how to address them. And sometimes it's about prioritizing and saying, look, we can take care of these priorities, but not these, um, and it's, you know, her, her compromising with me procrastinating and putting some of those things off, but also me, me compromising and figuring out, like, where can we find, uh, just, you know, yeah. You have a limited number of resources. What is the most strategic and best way to to deal with and tackle the issues that we have using the limited resources that we both have available? Which sounds like a really mechanical and like horrible way to approach your relationship, right? But I, but I think it's important to have, have that and come with that understanding of it's not necessarily the, the, an, an, I'm not saying this because I make an effort is I'm just creating, uh, an example. I'm using some wording. So darling, if you're, if you're watching this, you went out this, um, but it's not an example of her being a nag. And it's not an example of me being disrespectful or not caring about her priorities. Right? It's about us having these different mindsets and approaches of figuring out how to work out the middle and the in between.
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:So how, as a man listening to this, who wants peace. That probably doesn't sound very peaceful. So you're telling me I have to have all my hard days at work. I have to come home and talk to my wife and problem solve who's taking out the trash, you know,
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:You know, but those are things that you can, you can figure out ahead of time. Right? So things like, like that, like taking out the trash, uh, what, what works for us is we have divided tasks in the house. I do most of the cooking. Most of the, you know, clean up and washing the dishes. Uh, you know, I take out the trash. Um, you know, she helps with. Um, other stuff around the house and the cleaning and things like that. Right. So there's, there's different tasks that we have identified up and realized that this is my task. This is your task and knowing that we got it. But in those conversations where, like, you know, I come home, uh, there was a night. A little while back where I had to cook dinner, but I also had to go pick up my son from school and I think I had to do something else. I ended up working late. Then I had to go pick up my son. Then I had to come home and come to dinner and I'm driving home and I'm dreading it. I'm like, oh, God, I don't want to do this. Like, it's already so late. And then I eat and then we go to bed and I'm miserable. And I come home to find that she was cooking. She'd already put in her head of like, oh, even even if this is my task, right? There's a way that I can step up and help. And I think, you know, if you're struggling in relationships, I think that is an important thing to sit back off. Not just, you know, oh, well, she needs to do things for me. Are you proactively looking for ways to deal with and take the load off your partner when you have it? You have a partner who's in that mindset to where, you know, when you do have nothing left, you come home. Oh, you can do it. You know, that, uh, you find that she's cooking for you. And she's an amazing cook too.
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:I love her. I've never even met her and I love her. You're lucky.
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:I'm very. I don't know why she decided to take pity on me, but
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:Well, you know, she's doing the Lord's work. Um,
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:100%.
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:um, yeah, gosh, I love that. You know, I think it's, um, it is hard. Relationships are hard, but I, I find them to be rewarding. I know not everybody listening will. And every guy who wants to have a very, very peaceful life. I mean, what you said, like, you know, with vulnerability comes risk. Um, and with love comes risk. I think there's a CS Lewis quote about that, you know, like to love it all is to be vulnerable. And he was like, if you don't want to be vulnerable, then don't fall in love with anything. Don't love animals. Don't attach yourself to anything. Cause. It's going to be her at some point. So, but for me personally, it's what makes life meaningful is love and connection. So, all right, well, is there anything else that you would like to add in that we haven't covered that might be important?
brent-maclerie--he-him-_1_10-11-2024_150822:Uh, I don't think so. Um, we did a lot. No, I think, I don't know. Maybe the, maybe the final takeaway, right? You know, is, is if you are. Our struggling is, is really just circling back to, to empathy and kindness and compassion. You know, if, if you're wanting, feeling like you are disposable, feeling like you're isolated and nobody cares, um, it is not going to improve your situation to Let out that feeling and that anger and, um, you know, poured onto somebody else because they're, they're just going to see you as everything that you say about yourself. And I think really, it's about, can you, even in your pain, find a space to provide that vulnerability? Can you be kind and compassionate and vulnerable with somebody else and see if they take that little muscle that you offer and expand on that space and return it to you and then use that to then. To them build your connection because I think really that that's the way forward
katrina_1_10-11-2024_150821:Well, thank you so much for coming on here and talking. And if you guys want to find him, he is on Tik TOK at expatriarch and on Instagram at expatriarch. Or ex don't forget that part. Um, patriarch, right? Is that right? I think there's a period in the Instagram one. and then also for everybody listening as a reminder, this is not, a substitute for therapy or therapeutic advice. I am a therapist, but I'm not your therapist. Unless I am, then shout out. thanks for listening to my podcast. You're a great client. So anyways, thank you guys.
