The Therapy Alchemist
Change is not just about the science and research. Mental health isn't just what we characterize as a disorder or not. It's also about the mystical ways in which we change and grow. Science can't study everything about our inner spirit/soul.
On this podcast, a Licensed Professional Counselor in Colorado dives into the spaces that science cannot go. Discussing what ACTUAL growth and change look like. Filling in the gaps that the pop-psychology world misses, completely ignores, or sometimes shames. Plus some tips and tricks along the way to help you achieve your own personal legend.
The Therapy Alchemist
#12: The Unspoken Path: Stories of Infertility & Hope with Jenna Orosco, LPC
On today’s episode, I welcome my friend, Jenna Orosco, a seasoned professional in the mental health field with a focus on infertility therapy. Jenna shares her personal and professional experiences with infertility, highlighting the emotional rollercoaster and societal pressures associated with it. The discussion covers the importance of seeking support, the impact of infertility on relationships, and the concept of taking a break from the relentless pursuit of fertility treatments. Additionally, I open up about the grief associated with being single and unable to have children, underlining that everyone's grief is unique and valid. The episode emphasizes finding balance, self-compassion, and exploring all aspects of well-being during the fertility journey. Jenna also introduces 'Wellness Through inFertility,' (WTF) an online community aimed at providing holistic support for individuals struggling with infertility. The podcast is a blend of personal anecdotes and professional advice, encouraging listeners to remember that they are not defined by their infertility.
00:00 Welcome to the Therapy Alchemist Podcast
00:45 Technical Difficulties and a Warm Welcome
00:46 Diving Deep into Infertility with Jenna Roscoe
01:40 Jenna's Personal Journey Through Infertility
04:08 The Emotional Impact of Infertility on Relationships
17:58 Exploring the Partner's Perspective in Infertility
22:28 Navigating Relationship Dynamics Amidst Infertility
27:37 Navigating Intimacy and Stress in Infertility
28:18 Finding Connection Beyond Conception
29:14 Addressing the Emotional Rollercoaster of Infertility
30:24 Exploring Pleasure and Self-Care Amidst Infertility
35:35 The Unspoken Grief of Infertility and Singlehood
37:21 Understanding Grief and Empathy in Infertility
45:49 Embracing Support and Community in Your Journey
47:45 Final Thoughts and Takeaways
Jenna's Info:
Online Course: Wellness Through inFertility (WTF)
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*This is not a substitute for therapy nor is it therapeutic advice. If you would like to find a therapist in your area check out psychologytoday.com, goodtherapy.org, or therapyden.com
Welcome to the Therapy Alchemist podcast. I'm your host, Katrina Austin, a licensed therapist. I'm here to talk not only about the science behind mental health, but the magical process of transformation.
Track 1:Wow, I got like weirdly emotional when you asked that. that kind of caught me off guard. I think the first thing that came to my mind, that I experienced and that I've talked to other people experiencing is that I was surprised by some people in my life's reaction or lack of reaction.
Hey guys, welcome to today's episode. Today I'm interviewing my friend, Jenna Roscoe. She has been in the mental health field for 20 years and has been a counselor for 12. She talks about her struggle with infertility as well as how she helps clients get through in fertility. So let's go ahead and jump right in.
_1_02-23-2024_150910:I'm really, really excited about this because there are so many things that I want to ask you. And I think a lot of people are going to have some questions about this. when I've been running by the different people that I'm interviewing, a lot of people have been like, Ooh, that's really interesting whenever I bring up infertility.
Track 1:hi. Good to see you. And yeah, I'm excited to be here. I think it's a topic that so many people experience and we just don't talk about it. You know, there's so much shame or isolation that can come with infertility.
_1_02-23-2024_150910:Because nobody talks about it. Nobody. so can you tell the listeners a little bit about you and your background and why you chose to do infertility therapy? Okay.
Track 1:Yeah, absolutely. Um, it's definitely something I never expected that I would be doing. and then in my thirties, my husband and I were trying to have a baby and nothing was happening. So that was the start of our six year journey with infertility. And that consisted of, um, a, you know, trying traditionally a lot of Waiting, a lot of hoping, a lot of tears, and then moving into the more medical side, um, we ended up doing a couple rounds of IVF that were ultimately unsuccessful, and then took a long break, and then moved into the field of domestic adoption. We had a few matches that did not go through that was totally devastating. And then, um, I was able to become a parent through adoption, which was amazing. And I have a four year old right now, and he's fabulous. And during that whole process, though, I just I really wished that there was more support, that there was more people that I could talk to who understand what was going on. And I feel like there's a lot of support out there that gives suggestions on how to get pregnant or, um, you know, that validates medications people use and like the medical aspect of it. But the more and more That I noticed through my own experience and I noticed with people I was working with, with infertility, was like there's all these other things going on in life too and like how do we take care of kind of like our whole body and spirit while we're also going through infertility and that the power of talking to people who have been through that experience is really meaningful and supportive. So, I felt like I just kind of fell into it. I felt like I went through so much suffering that I wanted to do something with it. So I wanted it to be for naught. And one time in my life when I was coaching one of my friends who was about to start IVF, it was like, oh, like, this terrible experience that I had, I'm now able to share with her and help her. And she had a great experience. And It was one of those things, like, we can take these terrible things that happened to us, but it doesn't have to end there. We can then do something with it.
_1_02-23-2024_150910:Wow. Yeah. And I mean, that's something that I think is so important whenever it comes to helping people is like, if you've really been through it, then you can understand it. It's different than if you read it in a book, you know, what was something that for you, as you were going through the infertility struggle for years, what came as a shock to you that most people wouldn't expect?
Track 1:Oh my gosh, so many things. Wow, I got like weirdly emotional when you asked that. that kind of caught me off guard. I I think the first thing that came to my mind, that I experienced and that I've talked to other people experiencing is that I was surprised by some people in my life's reaction or lack of reaction. And I think some people who we greatly love do not really know how to fully show up when things are hard for a variety of reasons. and that with infertility there's this weird unspoken thing like you shouldn't talk about it or what you should or shouldn't do and so I found that oftentimes, people in my life would fall into this like advice giving or just wouldn't ask me about it. that was really painful for me, or the people who minimized it. And then I found the people in my life who really rose to the occasion and were really able to be bigger supports and we were able to, you know, deepen our connection. and were able to show up on those moments. pretty much everyone that I talked to with infertility has had a similar experience though of a friendship ending or just changing, while you're also mourning the infertility component now you're also mourning like the changes in relationships with people in your life.
_1_02-23-2024_150910:I wouldn't have even expected that. So, yeah, I mean, that makes sense that you'd be shocked by it. What was it, whenever I asked that question, what brought up the emotions?
Track 1:It was that sense of sadness, of, feeling so isolated in that moment. And, I don't really fault people. I think, it's similar to what we do if someone passes away, we don't want to see someone we love in pain or struggling or suffering. We wanted to fix it, we want to make it better. So we. don't bring it up, you know, because then maybe they forgot that someone passed away, we don't want to make it worse, even though we're not going to make it worse. So, I think we just have this human tendency to not talk about it, or to talk about solving it, but really, the people who are going through it I think just need someone to be like, that sucks, like, that sounds really awful, and I'm here for you. it just came up suddenly of missing that, I guess, and um, and also, you know, that things change and relationships grow and we continue to work on things, but that was. Yeah, that was a sad part of it, and it increases that isolation, you know, you feel like sometimes you don't want to burden people by talking about it, and if you have been going through infertility for a while, and At some point, you don't want to keep bringing it up, even though it's still so present on your mind. so it's this weird balance of how much do I talk about it, how much do I not talk about it? Are people going to ask me about it? Do I want them to ask me about it? Do I not? it's so much of infertility is the infertility piece, and then it's also like spiderwebs into so many other areas of our life.
_1_02-23-2024_150910:It sounds like it is. it's, it's grief in its own, right? And I think that people don't recognize that it's grief. You know, and you don't have to have a loss of something to have a loss. If that makes sense, right? Like, even if there wasn't a miscarriage that had happened or something, you're still grieving the loss of the family that you thought that you were going to create.
Track 1:Yeah, it's one of those invisible losses, we all as a society show up better when we can see what the loss was, uh, and for losses that we can't see, we don't really know, well, A, we might not know what's happening, or B, we don't know how to show up in that experience. So not only is the person monthly, you know, experiencing a loss every time someone who's trying to have a baby gets their period, it's devastating. Then we also start mourning, like, yeah, what we think our life was going to look like. we live in a society that we think we have more control over things than we actually do. And we are busy people and and we make lists in our head of when things are going to happen, and it's like, okay, well, by this age, this will happen, and I'll have a baby at this age, and then I'll have my second baby at this age, and, we just think we've got it figured out, and a lot of times that doesn't work out, so then we are mourning kind of this imaginary future that we thought that we would have. one of the resources that I found really helpful talks about a fertility lifeline, like thinking back from when you were a kid around thoughts that you were going to have around having a baby. And I think, you know, like times when you were a kid and you played, you were the mom and you had the baby or, um. You know, times, I remember being a teenager and having this, like, list of baby names written down somewhere. Like, I was just like, okay, well, what are these days and the names I'm going to pick from? And, if I were to look back on that now, I'm sure there are some pretty unique names because I was 16 when I did it. that's how long people have been thinking about when they'll have a baby. Whether, and sometimes it's a, oh, I need to be on birth control so I don't have a baby. You know, that focus on don't get pregnant. When will you get pregnant? but it's so present in our lives. So, when suddenly something we just assume is going to happen, and we put so much energy into, even unconsciously, that doesn't, it, it just rocks people's world.
_1_02-23-2024_150910:Yeah. you know, we talked about this a little bit too, like the, the plan B of life, right? I feel like, because what you're saying, I mean, I've thought it, as a woman, I've just always assumed that I would get pregnant and have a baby, right? And it's not until I got older that I realized that that is a possibility. It may not happen for a variety of reasons, surprisingly, Right. And so, I think, like, the plan B of life is really difficult, too, because, and it's like, how do I find a plan B, especially when I'm, like, really, really ready to be a parent? How do I come up with a plan B that's equally as, life giving and joyful? cause there are some things that can't replace that. so you have to figure out how am I going to continue with life and still be happy. And I feel like that's the phase where you're at as a therapist, as you're going through this is like helping walk people through this process of okay, so if it doesn't happen, what now? How do you make it? How do you continue on?
Track 1:Yeah. And I, and I think we get there eventually, I think we have to do, the grief work first, and a lot of it is just being really patient with where people are at. I remember going through IVF. Um, the second time and someone had asked me like, well, what if it doesn't work out? And like, I couldn't even fathom that, like, I did not have a plan B at that point. So I, I think timing's important. Um, I think going back, that's one of the things I would maybe have tried to suggest for myself is like, considering that that is an option, um, because I think the more prepared we are, you know, it will still be devastating, but it's not so shocking. I do think, like, the Plan B's are really important. Plan C's and Plan D's sometimes for people is really important, but I think we also just have to be really patient with people in terms of where they're at in that journey and, and meet them where they're at, and then kind of, like, start introducing that idea of, what's the next step? Like, you never thought you'd be to this step. What's another step? What are other areas in your life that feel good for you? Like, what are other areas in your life that you feel invested in? And, like, How do we kind of lean into those while you're still, so consumed with what's going on in this fertility area?
_1_02-23-2024_150910:Do you find that that's the main point of resistance with clients? And I don't mean resistance in a negative way. I just mean the struggle, right? Where it's like really difficult to get past where do people get stuck the most? I guess is really the question I want to know.
Track 1:I think it's different for everybody. it's sort of seems counterintuitive, but one of the biggest pieces of advice that I would give people dealing with this would be that if you are thinking, or if you are feeling kind of that like panic, I don't know what to do in this situation, I'm so stuck in infertility, my number one suggestion is to take a break from it. which feels awkward because with infertility there's this like little ticking clock above you that's like you have less eggs by the second, you know, you need to get on this right now. while that's true, yes, it is also true that we do not make good decisions under pressure, under stress, we're being reactive and like to take a time to calm our nervous system, to go on a vacation, to Let ourselves reconnect in relationships that we've lost to think about, you know, changing a job or am I actually happy with where I'm living like to take that step back from the fertility Panic that comes up around it I think is one of the most healing things that people can do and when I see people pause and give themselves some time they ultimately are able to work on themselves and take care of themselves and grieve and heal And then come back, you know, better, with better resilience and better stamina to then think about what they want that next step to be. I think everyone kind of hits that at different points, but I do recommend that really highly to people of like, I know it feels literally impossible to not be focusing on this right now and be working on it right now. And. Pick a date and step back for X amount of time, you know, and just give yourself time to put this on the shelf and take care of yourself as a human being and then come back to it and think about what's best for you because some everyone will have a different answer, right? Like some people will say I'm not ready to make a decision. Some people will say there's other things going on in my life that are taking precedence. Now, you know, we all still have parents that are getting older. We also have careers that we're trying to work on. We all still. Um, live in a society that's super expensive to exist in and like, how are we gonna afford where we're living? You know, so there's all these other components that are going on and also take priority. So by focusing on all the things that are going on in our life and then taking that break, we were better equipped to be able to then decide what we want to do with fertility and if we want to continue moving forward. on the medical component side of it. If we want to, if adoption is something that speaks to us that we want to learn more about, that's a great place to look into it. And some people decide that they are no longer going to pursue any of those options, and that they are going to find, grieve and work to find some acceptance around living without children in their, immediate lives.
_1_02-23-2024_150910:you know, as I'm listening, what I hear is kind of like this mindset, because I think a lot about plan B's and life not going exactly the way we want. And I think of like a chair, right? With four legs. And if you can set up your life to where you have like, okay, you've got your career that you like, you've got, you know, maybe the relationship you like, you've got the, or the connections you like, and then the hobbies that you like, and then you have parenting, right? As each of those being a leg. And so if one of the legs is missing, the chair still stands. And so for me, like when you say that, when it's like, okay, go take a break, go on vacation, sit down, really reinvest into your life. To me, it's like go re put all of your energy back into those other legs so that when you come back to try again, if that's what you decide to do, it's not going to crumble you this time, right? That's not going to be everything. And then your whole world is just going to fall apart. So I think that that's really, really brilliant advice to give to people. Um, I think it's, it's scary too, I would imagine, because people don't, I wouldn't want to hear that. I wouldn't want to hear, I want some magic answer that's like, okay, yeah, if you can just, you know, do yoga twice a day, you'll get pregnant. Like there's, you know, and you Google, I'm sure there's somewhere on there that says some magical thing that you can do. Um, but the reality is, is like putting people back into reality so that they can continue on, you know.
Track 1:Absolutely. it might feel like that chair collapses, but remembering that there's still foundation underneath it, you know, and that, yeah, I think, um, so much of infertility feels like we can't focus on those other legs because It will take away that one leg and you know, like I can't go on vacation because I have to a save money for whatever is next to my fertility journey, or I have to save my PTO at work, you know, because if I get pregnant, then I'll need this time off and everything revolves around the fertility component. So yeah, being able to remember that there's these other areas in your life and and it's delicate, you know, kind of saying that of you do have this. Yeah. All these beautiful things going on in life and you're dealing with this really like devastating experience. You didn't think you'd be dealing with so How do you focus on on your whole life? You know, that's it's all part of it. It's all there I think I did a lot of things well in my infertility journey, and I think I did a lot of things not so great and things I would do differently if I redid it. And one of the things I would do differently is I, I would do things for the sake of getting pregnant. Like, I remember doing These mindfulness apps and acupuncture, but like the whole point of it in my head was like this is going to get me pregnant Whereas I think if I could have shifted that to like this is really good for my stress going through this process trying to get pregnant or This is just helping me connected my body while I'm going through this I would have probably gotten a lot more out of that experience and not been so pissed off at it, um, when it didn't work. And then, like, not dropped it when it's like, oh, well, obviously it didn't get me where I wanted to go, so there's no benefit to these things. just kind of, like, flipping that perspective of, what will be good for you going through this? Not so much, it's getting you from point A to point B. Because we don't actually know where point B is. But, you know, as we're on this journey, what helps us?
_1_02-23-2024_150910:You know, I think a lot about, and I don't know if we should go down this route. I'll let you kind of decide that. But I think a lot about the partner as well, like if your partner is, you know, a male, right? how they have no say in a lot of this. Right. And it's not their body. And so I also wonder Because I feel like that's probably an untapped area that nobody's even talking about. Like, what is it like for them to also want to have children and not get to, Do you ever work with that?
Track 1:Mm hmm. Yeah, I think that you're absolutely right. I totally agree with what you said, and it makes me think of a few different things. Like, one, one of my big takeaways going through this experience is that two people grief differently, two people handle stress differently, two people make decisions differently. So, going through this with your partner is going to put a lot of stress on it, and it's really confusing when you're like, I want to talk about this all the time, that's how I'm trying to figure this out, and your partner's like, I never want to talk about this. And, it feels like a detachment when really I think they're trying to handle their grief in their own way. So, I think learning your partner's grief, experiences and how they process it is really important. And I think just in general, men are sort of forgotten about in infertility, and you know, with cisgendered women who are going through hormone treatments and taking all the pills and doing all the shots and doing all these things medically that are impacting their body. Yeah, uh, a man doesn't really have say in that. He can't really be super helpful with it. You know, he can't, um, you know, it all is really coming down to like the female body. So they, I think often get left out in this process, but then They're not often really taught how to talk about, you know, what they're experiencing either. we do a great disservice to everybody in this society. But, like, and just in this example, it's the men with not teaching them more, like, emotional language. And so, if they're in a situation like this where they are feeling, like, intense grief, where they're feeling shame, it really does a number on a lot of dudes with just their Projection of masculinity and what it means to be able to be virile and have a biological child. What their partner is feeling, like, I think there's a lot of fear. Am I letting my partner down? Are they going to leave me because of this? Do I not deserve my partner? Am I not upholding, my, my role in our contract? a lot goes on for guys that they just don't have the words to say. And then, unfortunately, I think they often talk to each other very much either and infertility impacts. You know, I think the numbers is one out of eight couples. So, you know, there are there are friends that are also going through this. And while it can be very isolating for women, I think it's easier for women to find each other and connect with each other and be more open about what they're experiencing is. And men, I mean, this is very stereotypically, but men just are don't often have those avenues. There's not as many like support. Um, groups geared towards men, you know, the, the books that are out there for men and fertility, they're, they're more silly. They're more like joking, um, which, you know, if that's how somebody is going to get that information, that's great. But it's, it sort of just makes me think about, you know, if you look at like Mother's Day and Father's Day cards, you know, Mother's Day cards are like so sweet and like, oh, you just do everything for me. And dad's cards are like fart jokes. And I think that's. That's the emotional language we give a lot of men. So um, so there's just not as many resources, there's not as many support for them, um, and they, they have a really difficult, lonely journey that I think if they're not talking about will lead into other areas in their life. So that sounds kind of doom and gloom,
_1_02-23-2024_150910:Yeah, and,
Track 1:also think it's true. So um, so it might not be the A man may not want to talk to his partner about it for a variety of reasons, but they should definitely be talking to somebody about it. So whether it's the dude you play basketball with, whether it's your own father, whether it's a therapist, whether it's a coworker, like whoever that person is, like I strongly, strongly encourage everyone and in this case, specifically men to like be talking to somebody.
_1_02-23-2024_150910:how many couples do you see that like struggle to make it through this? Because what I've seen is that if there's like, for instance, if a couple loses a child to death, it is high. I don't know what the statistics are on this, but it is highly likely that their relationship is not going to make it. So gosh, I just, I think that that's like you mentioned it before. It's a fear for both parties. Are they going to leave me for somebody else, right? Because if it isn't that important to them, um, cause I'm not fulfilling my duties. Right? Um, but like, I'm sure it plays like a huge emotional impact on it. Like you kind of touched on that too, but have you seen that with your clients? We're like, um, their relationships begin to start to falter.
Track 1:I've seen relationships definitely start to falter, and then I've seen people try to get some help and some support to help them through it, so I, it can lead couples to realize like. You know, maybe we are not able to kind of get through this together, because this is hugely vulnerable and painful. maybe we've just come to the end of our line with each other. Um, I think a lot of couples, not only is it, you know, will you possibly leave me because I'm not able to biologically have a child with you, but then there's also this component of, What if they want, what if someone wants to do IVF and someone wants to just not have children, you know, like, what if we, like, what if we disagree on the experiences? Um, I mean, my husband and I had a moment of going through the adoption process and there's just been so much accumulated loss that I think at either, at some point, one of us could very easily have said, like, I'm done. I'm done for a while or I'm done for permanently. And then the other person would have had to experience, you know, and come up with how they, how they feel about that and if that works for them or not. So, um, you know, luckily we, we didn't have to quite get to that point, um, but other people do. So it's, it, it does take a strong toll on relationships. I will say, though, that, you know, it's a big test in a relationship, and if you can find your ways to stay connected with each other and lean in and be empathetic and supportive of each other and be talking about what you're both experiencing, that I can absolutely strengthen
_1_02-23-2024_150910:what I was going to ask. Um,
Track 1:seen people definitely come out on the, the, a stronger end
_1_02-23-2024_150910:yeah, that's what I was going to ask too, is like, how do they navigate that? What are some of the coping things that people can do in their relationship? You know? I mean, it sounds like definitely going and doing maybe like couples therapy, right. Or just even individual therapy. But I think for themselves, like prioritizing relation, their relationship, because this is just one of the. You know, um, traumas that a couple will experience throughout life, there's going to be more, right? Like, you're going to lose more people, or, somebody's going to get laid off, or you're going to have, massive financial difficulties or health issues. there's going to be other things that happen, too. but this one is always, shocking because always so much positivity around it, like, Oh, birth is going to be amazing and you're going to be glowing. And which that in itself doesn't even usually happen for a lot of people. So they're like, what the fuck? this is not what I expected, what kind of advice would you give for, both parties?
Track 1:Mm hmm. I think a lot of the things that you just suggested are really imperative. So, counseling, whether it's individual or with a couples counselor, I do think it's helpful to have an infertility counselor. familiar therapist in that, and there's, there's not a ton of people trained in infertility in the mental health world, but there are some, so I think that that's beneficial. If you find someone that you really like who doesn't have that, you know, then keep with that relationship and educate them, and they can get educated, but I, I think kind of having that safe place where they can be talking about what they're going on, um, of course, you know, self care, right? So continuing to. See their support systems and do things around moving their body and do things that are fun and do things that make them feel good. I think that that's essential. I think date nights, you know, um, having a date night that's maybe like designated, we're not going to talk about this. We're going to actually like remember that we like each other and enjoy each other and have fun with each other without all this stress on top. This kind of goes back to your last question, but still ties into this question. I, one of the things that's really, really difficult for couples is sex, because there's nothing least sexy than trying to have a baby. Like, you know, trying to have sex on a schedule, trying to, you know, Take a bunch of tests to see when you're ovulating or taking pills or, you know, just each month being like, okay, like it's go time. Um, that is not sexy. Like, and we, a lot of stuff comes up for people around gender roles. If it's a heteronormative relationship around. Um, Oh, guys are always supposed to want sex and, but actually they are stressed out in this process and they might have, um, ED and then what, what happens for that? Cause that should never happen, but actually it's way more common than people think it is. So, um, without even the infertility stress, so, you know, like I'm just not in the mood. I don't want to do this, but if we don't do this, then we're waiting another month and our window has gone by. So like there's so much stress and pressure around sex in a relationship through infertility. So one of the things that I think you can do for yourself is to remember to connect in enjoyable, pleasurable, erotic ways that are not around trying to have a baby. that doesn't necessarily mean, like, go have sex at other times, except if you want to do that, that sounds fantastic. But I think it means, like, remember to hold hands with each other and give back rubs and You know, do like fun, flirty, emotionally connected things and that we can sustain like good emotional connection with our partner, even by talking about hard things, but also talking about, you know, fun things and enjoyable things. So, I think, just keep leaning into the relationship. Talk about it when sex suddenly is like really weird and awkward and people are crying before, during, after. We just need to have conversations around it. So, because another thing that's really isolating is that they feel like they can't talk about it with their partner. sex brings up a whole lot of stuff in infertility. And, remembering that it can be fun and enjoyable with your partner without the focus of trying to have a baby. And just looking for those other ways of
_1_02-23-2024_150910:Yeah. I think it's so important to remember too, that sex is just fun. It's one of the best things in life.
Track 1:be. Like when there's so much, when there's so much stress that's been building up in our body, it's hard to even want to do that though. And then that's, that's another loss. You know, like I used to want to do this, you know, and now I don't want to anymore. And, or I've been taking these pills and it kills my sex drive, even though I'm supposed to now want to have sex and, or it makes me feel crazy. Like, so. There's so many different stressors that add up, if you can remember that you enjoy sex with your partner and that's fun, that's awesome. And if you can't get to that place, don't put pressure on yourself, just do things that do connect, just cuddle with your partner. Just remember that, holding hands and each other's skin feels good. Um, read Emily Nagoski's
_1_02-23-2024_150910:Come together? She just came out with, come together. Me too. Same.
Track 1:it. I haven't read the second one, but I just
_1_02-23-2024_150910:you know, and I think like focusing too on just Like, going slow and maybe even taking sex off the table if that's the issue, right? It's like, okay, well let's just get naked and I'm just going to touch you in different places with different items or in different ways and we're just going to see what feels good because you deserve pleasure, right? I think that's such a good thing to remember is like, I deserve pleasure whether or not I'm stressed in life.
Track 1:hmm.
_1_02-23-2024_150910:my dog? Yes. Okay, everyone. That's my dog? I'm not going to edit him out. He's just upset that he's in this room. So he's like rolling on the ground.
Track 1:Hi, doggie.
_1_02-23-2024_150910:loves it. Yeah. Um, Right.
Track 1:with your partner. You know, if it's like, I would like us to just play and do something carefree and fun, and whether that means bowling or karaoke or naked exploration, like, awesome. You know, but we have to allow ourselves to ask for that, and we have to allow ourselves to hear our partner and what they're asking for and have
_1_02-23-2024_150910:Which goes back to the legs of the chair. Like pleasure should be one of the legs, you know, it really, it really should. And it pleasure can look like a lot of different things. And so like, you know, just I don't know. I think we get so future focused in life in general. Of like, when I reach this point, then I can be happy. And it's like, eh, no. I mean, you may not ever reach that point. Because you could die tomorrow. We don't know. So you might as well lean into the push Oh my heavens to Betsy. Okay, that's my dog. His name is Shooter. Yes, we hear you. Come here.
Track 1:Mmhmm.
_1_02-23-2024_150910:Okay. Hehehehe.
Track 1:Oh, hi. Hi, pups. Look at you cutie. I mean, it's bizarre. Some of the stuff that then we get that we think that when then we have control over or we're given way too much control. So much of infertility, you have like zero control or you have some control, you know, around how you take care of yourself and how you try to manage your stress through this process. We have very little control over biologically what's happening. And in some instances you have it. Way too much control. Like if you're going through IVF and they're like, when do you want to start this process? And then people start thinking like, Oh, well, you know, in two months I'm going to my sister's wedding. So maybe we should wait until then. But like, it wouldn't be nice to do this in the summer. So like, maybe I'm going to like get pregnant then when in reality, again, things might work or not work. And then the one that really trips me out is when people are given the choice of, um, which embryo to implant. And they know that gender and that. It is really, I think it's really exciting for people and I think it's really hard to like than
_1_02-23-2024_150910:Mm hmm. Mm
Track 1:work out. So there's, and so it's up to everyone around if they decide they want to know that or not. You're allowed to not know. You are allowed to know if they give you that option. But I just kind of keep that in the back of your mind of like. Is that potentially gonna make things harder for you or not? Um, or if you're like, you know, if this is the only moment I get to connect with this embryo and this is maybe my only chance to get pregnant and I'm just gonna, go all in and it might be terrible on the other side then go all in. I think it's just clarity. be aware of what might be hard in this situation and, and
_1_02-23-2024_150910:you. know, Brene Brown called that foreboding joy. Right? Where we like, are like, well, I'm gonna get too excited because if I do, then, you know, something bad's gonna happen, you know, but I love what you said about like, yeah, okay, I'm just gonna lean all into this joy of like, oh, look, here's my little embryo. And this is the one experience I get to have with it and how cool that I get to do that. So in this moment, it's great. And life is going to happen and maybe it's not going to be great later, but that's also just part of the process of life. Like, there is loss and there is, um, pain that is expected. But I think we suffer whenever we cling to the idea that happiness is supposed to be this consistent thing. When life is meant to be all the emotions, all 87 of them, not just happiness, you know? Very shocking. Um, Mm hmm. Mm
Track 1:round and round and yeah, so I, I, I think it's just kind of going into it with your eyes open, like. Some of us think that if we don't fully get excited, we will protect ourselves, and maybe that's true. Maybe that's not. I don't know. Um, and some of us think, you know, I can't control if something terrible is going to happen down the road, so I'm just going to be all in right now. So I think it's just being aware of what you're doing. You know, like, if, if you've had a Unfortunately, like, if you've had a number of miscarriages and you get pregnant, it might be really hard to get excited about that, um, because you are in self preservation mode and that's okay. Like, that is okay to not be, like, the super excited, blushing, you know, glowy pregnant woman. As you said, most people aren't anyways, so it's, I think, just allow yourself understanding and acceptance of you're going to get through this however you need
_1_02-23-2024_150910:One of the other things too, before we finish up is a topic that we had discussed before. And I wasn't sure if I should bring this up on here because I didn't want to invalidate people who are experiencing infertility issues. But, you were like, hey, you know what, let's just bring it up anyway and just. So, you know, for me personally, I am single, I am not married and I had planned originally to, like you said, I had a whole plan that I was going to have a baby by now, with my ex husband and yet here we are. And so for me, there's a lot of grief in that as well. And I, there's no name for that. Right. And the grief comes from I don't have a partner. So I am also incapable of having a baby. I don't get that luxury of The option, right? Because I can't just like run around and just go find a guy and I can't and it is very expensive to do
Track 1:Um
_1_02-23-2024_150910:like I can't just go to a sperm bank. You know what I mean? financially and that's not something that I personally would want to do anyway, and so Um, I, I guess I kind of want to acknowledge that too for people who just can't find a partner because I'm finding that nowadays it is really, really difficult if you are in your thirties plus to, in your single to find a partner. The dating world is very toxic and it's difficult and everybody's on guard and it's men against women and it's this horrible space, you know, so like I think there's going to be a lot more people who are experiencing this as well, but I kind of wanted to get your take on that.
Track 1:Yeah, I thought that it was so important to talk about and that your experience and so many other people's experience is so real. there is so much grief that's in there. And um, I think we have a tendency to put grief or tragedy on hierarchies of like, whose is more and whose is less and, and who deserves more. What or like, yeah, but at least you have this or like, well, hey, look on the bright side. There's this. And, um, and I probably even said some of those things myself, you know, like well intentioned, but probably not helpful. So I, I think that that's such a real experience and to be completely authentic. I I think it hits different when people who have physically not been able to have a baby hear from other people in other situations. so it's like not fair and I want to hold all of those. Like I feel like angry and defensive and also like empathetic and that it's totally real. And so I, I think we just all need to work on hearing each other and just be sensitive with who we're sharing what with. I There's times in my life, um, you know, secondary infertility comes to mind where, I would talk about the things I would go in through and people would talk about their struggles having a second baby, which is very real. Like that, that counts, that's grief. That is an experience they have had and that's valid. And when I was in my seat of, well, that's fucking nice. Like, you know, you have one baby, like, you know, I'm not great at math, but like that's one more than me. So, um, you know, so I, I, And there's other times where I could totally hold that, of like, yes, you know, I'm having my feelings and you are having your feelings, so, I, and I, I think I read an article the other day, like, we're just entering a phase where more and more people are single, like, this is gonna be an experience for more and more people, um, you know, due to a variety of reasons, so, how do we, how do we, you know, Hold space for it. How do we be empathetic to like, you know, if people have the capacity to hold that for each other or not, and if they don't, you know, that's, that is okay. Find other people who can hold that because everybody's grief is valid, like, and should be shared. Um, but then you were also just saying, like, and that really struck with me, like, there's not a name for it. we could go into a whole big discussion on, like, pros and cons of labels, but there's something about, like, I am having a pain and there's not a word. And that feels so invalidating and, like, how, I don't know, I think we need to come up with a word for it because, like, it's, it's so real and so many people are going through that. how do we, how do we just hold that and know that, like, we You know, our pain and our sadness is all the same, and like, yes, you have something I don't have, and I have something you don't have, and, but how do we like, still kind of find
_1_02-23-2024_150910:Yeah, and it's, it's, I think it's natural for humans to make things a little bit competitive. You know, I, we like to compare a lot, you know, and I, I'm sure back in the,
Track 1:Mm hmm.
_1_02-23-2024_150910:you know, days when we were living under rocks or whatever, basically like the, that was, helpful in some way, but we don't really need that as much today, but, there was, and I cannot remember this guy's name for the life of me, but he's the person who, who worked with the woman who came up with the five stages of grief. Okay, so she was the one who, like, really researched that and discovered that there were five stages of grief. And,
Track 1:Yeah.
_1_02-23-2024_150910:I was listening to an episode, um, literally on my drive moving to Colorado where he was on Brene Brown's show. they were, Bernay asked him, you know, cause they, he discovered through the loss of his own son that there's actually six stages to grief. And so she asked him, she said, okay, so like, what do you tell people when they say like, what's the worst kind of grief? Is it, this dog is driving me absolute bonkers. Let me just, hold on y'all, I'm just going to let him out. so I was listening to that podcast and she said, what is the worst kind of grief? Like what, how do you answer it when people say what's the worst kind of grief that you can have? Is it the loss of a child? Is it the loss of your spouse? You know, what is the worst grief? And he said, the worst grief is your own.
Track 1:Yeah.
_1_02-23-2024_150910:And that's true for this, too, right? That's the worst grief is the grief that you have.
Track 1:hmm.
_1_02-23-2024_150910:we all have to remember that because I know that there's gonna be a lot of people listening to this who are struggling with infertility who may be like, well, You know, and then comparing themselves and then feeling guilty that they feel bad, right? That I noticed that I encounter that a lot with clients where they're like, Well, but, you know, other people don't even have, you know, they have major health issues and blah, blah, blah, and I don't have that, you know, and I'm He just scratched the door and just looked at me. What do you want? You didn't want in here. Oh my gosh, he's so funny. He has such an attitude. Yeah, he's like you don't need a child, mom, you've got me, and I'm like, okay. Yes. Yeah, exactly. I am clearly the answer. The answer is dogs, everyone, you know.
Track 1:Yes, there
_1_02-23-2024_150910:in doubt, get a dog.
Track 1:a dog. yeah, that totally made me think of something to know. the kinds of grief that are your own and the one that you're going through. you were talking about, judging ourselves. And I think that that's so true. And I experienced that a lot and a lot of clients. I see not just people with infertility, it's that fine line. If I want to have gratitude for what I have in my life. Yes, so important. Focus on that and we don't want to invalidate our pain either. So and it's hard to find that balance and sometimes maybe one outweighs the other but be gentle with yourself and be kind when you look at a baby announcement, and like want to crumble it in a ball and throw it away and light it on fire. Like, you are still a good kind person. You know, or if you don't want to go to your friend's baby shower, or you you know, you just have an experience that kind of makes you question your values. Like, what kind of a person am I? Like, you're a person going through grief. You're a person in pain and you are trying to hold space for other people who Or having an experience that you so desperately want and it doesn't mean their experience is perfect You know, it doesn't and it doesn't mean you're a bad person. It just means you're holding a lot So like, you know, I used to hate going to Target there's always all these pregnant moms and I feel like I stopped watching so many TV shows because When I was wanting to be pregnant suddenly everyone on every TV show I watched was pregnant accidentally, right like and like and they're all like, you know mixed feelings about it and I'm like so I You just see it everywhere and it is uncomfortable and kind of icky feelings and they're just real feelings like you said. We have all the real feelings so, um, be gentle with yourself and be kind to yourself and remember the other legs that are in your life, you know, the other things that are going on in your life and, you know, just do the best you
_1_02-23-2024_150910:and, and don't try to balance everything. I think too much I see online, everybody's like, well, you just need to find the balance. No, actually it's just every day your emotions are going to change and that's normal. So like if to, yeah, exactly. So if today you hate every pregnant woman you can't come across awesome tomorrow, you may be. Feeling a lot of gratitude for them and thankfulness, and then the next day you may feel really guilty because so and so over in, you know, whatever poverty land doesn't even have a home and you're upset you can't get pregnant. Right? Like, who cares? it will pass. Everything changes. You know, like there is no perfect way to be a human except to just let it be. You know, so
Track 1:Mm hmm. Yeah, being, being gentle with yourself and, and recognizing if it's getting into a place, you know, where it's entering into a serious depression episode or, um, I mean, people have suicidal thoughts when they're going through infertility and they don't want to talk about it because they feel like how it would impact, you know, what they're working on. So, like, if it's, be, be kind to yourself with your emotion fluctuations and if you are entering into a place that, um, is scary or unsafe or is just not feeling good for you, like, please, please, please get some help and reach out to somebody, um, because it, this is extremely difficult and,
_1_02-23-2024_150910:yeah, absolutely. and you know, you and I are both taking clients. So if y'all happen to be in Colorado, we've got some space available. Give us a call. I will put Jenna's information below and you guys can follow her on Instagram. Are you on other social medias as well? Or is it just Instagram?
Track 1:I believe
_1_02-23-2024_150910:the Facebook, Got it.
Track 1:um, under Resolve Counseling, if that dates me at all.
_1_02-23-2024_150910:Yeah. So,
Track 1:yes. The Facebook and the Instagram, not the TikTok,
_1_02-23-2024_150910:so. follow her on Instagram. You know, she posts some really cool stuff. Um, just as little tips and tricks to kind of help you get through this process. If that's something that you're going through. thank you for coming on. Is there anything else that you want to add on to any of this? Any final advice? Which
Track 1:I guess I haven't mentioned it until this, but so while I work with people through infertility counseling, I'm also building kind of an online community for people going through infertility that is more centered around how do we take care of our whole selves through infertility, mind, body, and spirit. Um, so not, it's not the place to go to get the will to sessions of yoga, get me pregnant tricks. It's the place to go for, um, You know, this part really sucks, and I need some hope over here. And, hey, like, what about this whole thing that we're not even, like, talking about over here? So, it's really, it's just, I wanted it to be more accessible, and, um, So, people can sign up through my, website or through, social media and it's called Wellness Through Infertility
_1_02-23-2024_150910:awesome. Good. Yeah, you guys go check that out because, you know, it is important to get support and then bring in your partner too, I think this would be a cool thing for you guys to do together, another way to connect and, maybe do that program together. I think that would be awesome. thank you so much for being on here. I'm, I'm really glad to have you.
Track 1:Thank you.
_1_02-23-2024_150910:what would you say is overall, like the overarching golden nugget of what you've learned from your journey and working with people? Like, what's the, what's the main takeaway?
Track 1:I really do think taking a break is one of the, golden nuggets that I try to connect with people. Another would be that you were not in fertility, like so many times. We accept that as our, identity, and that's not true, it's a medical experience that you have, you didn't cause it, I don't care how many, How many drinks you had in your past or if you've had abortions or if you've had STIs or if you one time didn't want to be a mom at some point, I don't care about any of your past experiences. You did not cause infertility to be happening to you and it is not who you are as a person. so when people are like, you're infertile, I'm infertile, like that's not who you are. You have infertility. it's something you're journeying with and experiencing with. just keep that in mind. this is not you, this is also not Forever. This is temporary.
Thank you so much, guys, for listening to today's episode and thank you, Jenna, for coming on and sharing your story and how you work with clients with them. Fertility. As a reminder, this is not a substitute for therapy or therapeutic advice. If you want any guidance on how to find a therapist to check out the links below. And as a reminder, hit that subscribe button and also follow me on social media at the therapy Alchemist.
